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Author Topic: The Idoling!!! Discussion Thread  (Read 759456 times)

Offline SomethingWild

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Re: The Idoling!!! Discussion Thread
« Reply #1100 on: October 13, 2011, 11:10:30 AM »
I've read this discussion with great interest. Since I'm a bit of an outsider to Idoling I didn't want to get involved, but I'll bite.

It doesn't matter as far as 4th gen. is concerned, they have no talent. No amount of nurturing and developing over time would turn them into a worthy idol. At best, they'll only become the next Eto and Takuguchi who have to make fool of themselves to even get noticed. It's really not about developing a character with 4th gen. members, it's about lack of talent.

You mentioned this a couple of times now, but that is just a ridiculous statement. First of all, you can't group the five girls from the 4th generation together like this. They are all individuals with their own strengths and weaknesses.

Secondly, Kurata Ruka may not be the best vocalist and she may not be the biggest variety talent, but she has X-factor. Actually, she has X-factor coming out every pore. I only watch Idoling's main show every now and then, but Kurata immediately stood out to me. She's has her own distinct look and she can be funny. Furthermore, I watched one of Morita's IVs recently. Morita is my #2 girl, but I found her IV to be really bland, maybe even boring. I decided to check out Kurata's IV and I was pleasantly surprised. It was so energetic and feel good. It's quite hard to make an appeal for yourself for 60 minutes, but she pulled it of very well. To me, that means she has talent to be an idol.
However, Kurata does have her downsides. 1. There already are tons of baka charas in the world of idols. 2. Everything she releases (digital photosets, IV, etc) has a massive loli vibe, which can be off-putting. On the other hand, she will grow up and she already has a nice portfolio, which will only get better in time. I seriously think Kurata will become one of the top girls in Idoling eventually.

Thirdly, Chika Ojima. She is probably the funniest out of the 4th gen. Not one episode goes by where she doesn't bring a smile to my face. I may not know that much about her, but as far as variety goes, I say she does it well.

The other three 4th gen girls have been a bit invisible to me and I'm sad to say I barely know their names. But to say the entire 4th gen is completely talentless? I don't think so.



Offline Jenus

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Re: The Idoling!!! Discussion Thread
« Reply #1101 on: October 13, 2011, 05:24:56 PM »
You mentioned this a couple of times now, but that is just a ridiculous statement. First of all, you can't group the five girls from the 4th generation together like this. They are all individuals with their own strengths and weaknesses.
Technically speaking, you are absolutely 100% correct, but I think you are trying to take a cheap shot as well if your only ammo is being politically correct. The only reason I have grouped the 4th gen. together is out of convenience, it's just a lot of hassle for me to separate them individually and point out how they are talent-less one by one when the final verdict on them is the same. If it was the 1st or the 2nd gen. that I was evaluating, I wouldn't refer to them in a group as the talent level within each group varies greatly. But you have to keep in mind that being judged as a gen. group is not uncommon way of being judged when you view them as a unit whether it's unfair or not, that's just reality. I mean do you ever say it's unfair to compare Team A and Team K and Team B because they are all individuals? No, you say it's unfair because they are all different as a unit. AKB fanatics of each Team get into fist fights every day because it probably matters to them to identify as Teams as well as individuals.

Kurata has X-factor? Could you be more specific? I mean if you are going to throw around vague terms to justify that Kurata has talent, you are not going to convince me. I don't think Morita's IVs fly off the shelves because of how entertaining her IVs are, IVs for the most part has nothing to do with talent because it's just about the looks. I've seen the first IV by Kurata out of curiosity as an Idoling fan, but yeah I didn't get anything out of it that you say you have, sorry.

It's not that I don't think Kurata is this hopeless, worthless, nothingness person, by talent-less I'm saying her downsides far outweigh any upside she may have, such as her dancing, that it just doesn't matter to me in the whole scheme of things, because she's vastly inferior to her peers. I'm sure there are a select few who think Kurata is the best thing to happen since sliced bread, but I'm talking more in the context of reality, not fantasy.

Ojima being goofy and acting like a buffoon does not equal being funny to me. Take the concept of a clown for example, it's sole job is to be funny, but does every person find clowns funny? No, some even think clowns are creepy and weird. Only kids may find clowns funny because they are kids and they don't know any better. Yeah once in a while something she does in one of those game episodes amuses me, but I can't simply take that and turn her into a comedic genius and claim that she has talent, no way.

I literally could write 5 pages on each of the 4th gen. members individually as to why they have no talent, but I really don't think any of you care that much about them so I don't see the point to do that, and believe me I probably wouldn't be able to keep my interest in 4th gen. this long for me to write 5 pages worth if they weren't in Idoling for sure.

Again, you are 100% correct in pointing out that I was wrong in judging them as a group because my intent was to evaluate them as individuals, and I wasn't careful enough to make that clear. But I must say, you are way off if you think your selective personal impression of Kurata and Ojima along with your self-admitted non-impressionable rest of the 4th. gen group is good enough case to over-take my evaluation on them because you clearly don't seem to have that much interest in them to know much about them that I do to lay that claim.

Offline Inferno

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Re: The Idoling!!! Discussion Thread
« Reply #1102 on: October 13, 2011, 07:32:38 PM »
Ok, if you'd have the power to do so, then which 3 4th gen members would you kick out of Idoling, and which 2 would you keep? Ruka Kurata, Yuna Ito, Manami Nomoto, Kaoru Goto, Chika Ojima... What kind of explanation would you give to each individual member?

Offline winner

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Re: The Idoling!!! Discussion Thread
« Reply #1103 on: October 13, 2011, 08:05:15 PM »
All these messages just from guessing what 5th gen members will be chosen. :lol:

But it's exactly this sort of thinking that can surprise you the most.
And to me, it has already happened before. Rurika, to me, was the well-mannered tall girl at the back that I didn't notice at all for the first year of the show. Now she's smack in the middle, a poster girl of the group, and talks with much more confidence.
Maipuru was my 2nd fave member really early on (Sayanee is my first, and still is). But she was never a stand-out, compared to the rest of the 1st gen girls (buncha loonies :D). Now she's a leader (and it feels natural that she should've been chosen leader), a main vocal, can go all-out much more easily than the old reserved her, and makes us laugh all the time with her weirdness.

And just like you said Jenus. It might just be a 4th gen that gains in popularity and turns out to be the future ace, or leader or main. And it's this growth and change as an entertainer that makes it fun to follow idols.
Say 5th gen is a bunch of kids with no skills whatsoever. It'll still be fun to see how they interact with the current members, and watch them turn into idols. Maybe they won't help get an oricon #1, or make the show a lot more popular/fun the first 1/2 to 1 year they join. But honestly, it didn't matter the past few years. Does it really matter so much now?

Offline Jenus

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Re: The Idoling!!! Discussion Thread
« Reply #1104 on: October 13, 2011, 10:16:27 PM »
I kind of went over this already but let me say it again, the 4th gen. has NO SAVING GRACE FACTOR that I can't possibly in my rightful mind apply the best case scenario of Rurika and Maipuru's example to the 4th gen. and cross my fingers. Rurika and Maipuru in particular are also the very few out of the group that were scouted by the talent agency, they begged them to sign with them, do you think they would do that if they weren't 100% sure that those two had clear potential and talent? 4th gen. has been in the group for almost 2 years now and they are still so inept and haven't shown much at all that they make the likes of Miyake and Serina look half decent by comparison, and those two aren't even in the same vicinity that of Rurika and Maipuru themselves. So you'll have to excuse me if I find your claim outrageously unlikely to materialize and absolutely delusional.

It might just be a 4th gen that gains in popularity and turns out to be the future ace, or leader or main. And it's this growth and change as an entertainer that makes it fun to follow idols.
I seriously believe Idoling will end before 4th gen. takes over the senior role if they keep letting the 4th gen. run amok. Watching 4th gen. struggle since they joined the group was not very enjoyable, they dragged the whole group along with it too, and they haven't improved at all in almost 2 years that they've been in the group. I rather see someone with talent grow and develop instead.

Say 5th gen is a bunch of kids with no skills whatsoever. It'll still be fun to see how they interact with the current members, and watch them turn into idols. Maybe they won't help get an oricon #1, or make the show a lot more popular/fun the first 1/2 to 1 year they join. But honestly, it didn't matter the past few years. Does it really matter so much now?
Sounds like you have already gave up on Idoling ever going mainstream. I'm not far behind your sentiment myself, but I still like to believe there's hope and 5th gen. audition definitely can be the missing key, so in that sense I feel that it can matter more than you think, especially when Idoling is finally showing some signs that the tide is going their way lately from the efforts of few individual members. But if they blow it like they did with 4th gen. and pick a bunch of talent-less hacks, they may end up being in a worse situation than not having 5th gen. audition at all.

@Inferno
I've stated that 4th gen. as a whole has no talent so I really can't pick anybody that I would keep even in an theoretical inquiry such as yours. I honestly do not see the point of your question, unless you are just trying to find out what I like in an idol or something.

Reason for each individual member? Because they have no SAVING GRACE FACTOR, they are not good at anything that matters.

Offline Jenus

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Re: The Idoling!!! Discussion Thread
« Reply #1105 on: October 14, 2011, 03:38:38 AM »
Ok you are just throwing in all these different elements into it that's just making the whole point of the discussion irrelevant. I was never talking about who and what makes someone popular and trendy, that has nothing to do with TALENT that I'm talking about here. So when I say TALENT in this context, I was emphasizing SINGING TALENT if you care to notice, because I have identified that the younger members severely lack it right now in Idoling, and of course you probably won't give a fuck if you don't give a fuck about Idoling's music and its quality as your signature statement indicates, however I do, I think music is one of the strong points of Idoling's identity, but when it comes to the artistry that is MUSIC and SINGING, TALENT is a very very very very very important factor, not just skill and practice and pretending to try because she's just an idol BULLSHIT that you are accustomed to.

TALENT is universal, you just can't fake talent, either you got it or you don't. Nobody in their right mind will ever say that Michael Jordan has no talent, nobody in their right mind will ever say Michael Jackson had no talent, nobody in their right mind will ever say Elvis Presley had no talent. Talent is universally identifiable, that is why talent is admirable and should be valued at the highest plateau, and an unflappable method of evaluating someone because it's the universal truth that has more validity than anything else such as taste, popularity, and trend.

You may ask why I'm even discussing a topic in the context that is not fully reflective of reality that has all these other stuff you have brought up that determines the fate of Idoling's success in show business, because if I only gave a fuck about superficial popularity and talent-less hack idol groups prancing themselves around in quantity instead of quality and merely getting off on the vastly over-rated hype and back-handed media deal-makings by big name producer, I wouldn't be a fucking Idoling fan now would I?

So don't direct your emo-banter at me for bashing 4th gen. because the only reason I even bother is because I care about Idoling. If you can't get things straight and get all pissy at me for not being able to handle it, don't participate.

Offline Code001

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Re: The Idoling!!! Discussion Thread
« Reply #1106 on: October 14, 2011, 04:53:28 AM »
Insert profanity laden post here

It's just an idol group, man.  No need to get so worked up about it and start bashing forum members.  People have different tastes, and they don't necessarily align with yours.  Is it that hard to accept?
Feel free to PM me for Japanese to English translations.

Offline Jenus

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Re: The Idoling!!! Discussion Thread
« Reply #1107 on: October 14, 2011, 05:31:19 AM »
What in the hell are you talking about, my post has nothing to do with taste.

And nobody's really challenging that 4th gen. has more talent than Maipuru and Rurika either.

SuzukiRyo's post simply does not relate to my discussion and I was simply pointing that out. And I'm not bashing any poster, I just used profanity to make my point 100% clear since they don't seem to quite get it, including you.

Offline relaxershippuden

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Re: The Idoling!!! Discussion Thread
« Reply #1108 on: October 14, 2011, 06:30:47 AM »
^the same  :twothumbs, but without profanities.
here we are talking about who have more talent repect "the singing".

PS: Im so sorry, because i was who started all this about the graduations.
i feel so sad because all Idoling fans are "fighting" needlessly. Stop please.

Offline SuzukiRyo

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Re: The Idoling!!! Discussion Thread
« Reply #1109 on: October 14, 2011, 08:24:21 AM »
Yeah, sad. Idoling!!! not just getting bullied by Fuji TV, they are also getting bullied by their own fans. So sad.
Can we continue this on 2ch instead ?
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 08:29:55 AM by SuzukiRyo »

Offline kei_86

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Re: The Idoling!!! Discussion Thread
« Reply #1110 on: October 14, 2011, 08:35:53 AM »
I just used profanity to make my point 100% clear since they don't seem to quite get it, including you.

And that doesn't make sense because the end does not justify the means. Not everyone is brought up in a society which uses profanity to make a point. You have your opinion, which I respect because you're looking at things from the music point of view which I obviously do not. I find it interesting with how much difference can a person look at the same subject but to have very different views. It was a really good experience understanding the idea and opinion you had but not the words written.

I understand and can clearly see how you have mastered the thought process of total objectivity, but your tendencies for profanity would suggest you to master "manners" and "rhetoric" next

I think we can conclude one thing from all these post so far
Quote
Idoling!!! fans are clearly divided into 2 groups. Music and Variety. Both group holds on to very different views on things and how Idoling!!! should be going about in the future.

Therefore let us close this particular discussion and cease this animosity (even if there is actually no animosity [I wouldn't know I'm not brought up in your culture] it sounds like it for the untrained mind)

*crossing my fingers*

We're all idolingers!!!, its a beautiful word, lets not tarnish it down.

Offline Jenus

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Re: The Idoling!!! Discussion Thread
« Reply #1111 on: October 14, 2011, 09:00:38 AM »
Ok you are just not getting it.

First, I was talking in the context of singing talent. So I talk about things that relate to it.

That does not mean that I only think of Idoling in terms of singing and music. It just happened to be a specific subject I wanted to bring up.

Would it make sense to you if I said something like "Well Maipuru is amazing at singing because she has such a witty mind." just to cover the bases? No it wouldn't.

Please do not simplify things and make things trivial in what I'm saying, it just isn't the same thing that I'm relaying here.

I don't know how else to explain anymore, is this really that difficult of a concept to grasp?

Anyway, I have nothing more to add anyway since the talent discussion is pretty much settled without any objections.

For the last time, I'm not bashing any of your taste in idols. Why would I care who you like in the first place.

Offline kei_86

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Re: The Idoling!!! Discussion Thread
« Reply #1112 on: October 14, 2011, 09:35:53 AM »
When I summed it up as

Quote
Idoling!!! fans are clearly divided into 2 groups. Music and Variety. Both group holds on to very different views on things and how Idoling!!! should be going about in the future.

I'm referring to all the post that has been posted throughout the discussion and not just your post per se. And yes I know that you're talking in context of the current discussion about music but all the more important about the division here because people like me do not even have the capacity to worry about the topic of singing talent at all while you do.

And no I'm not even summarizing what you are trying to say, I'm just summarizing what I learn by observing all these debates flying around, albeit may be a little bit short. If I'm summarizing about your statement then I'd be mentioning about the idoling!!! members but here I am talking about the idoling!!! fans.

We have people like relaxershippuden who belongs to the music side and people like me who obviously goes to the variety side. Thus certain bias will occur in regards to certain issue. But neither matters, we're just looking at something from a different perspective and of different importance.

Now putting all that aside,

today is the 800th episode right? I really hope that it'll be something which is really good. We're getting a little bit too much of shinahachi lately and don't fujiTV dare to pull out a joke of a shinahachi SP for the 800th episode today T_T

Offline SuzukiRyo

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Re: The Idoling!!! Discussion Thread
« Reply #1113 on: October 14, 2011, 10:17:44 AM »
#800 FOD thumbnail has leaked and no, it is no shinahachi. and I just read @mura_ne's tweet about today's studio recording.
Quote
前半収録終了。
アイドリング!!!も5年目を迎えて、改めて原点に戻ったようなそんなほのぼのとした楽しさに満ちた収録でした。
good sign, isn't it ?

Offline Jenus

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Re: The Idoling!!! Discussion Thread
« Reply #1114 on: October 14, 2011, 07:50:09 PM »
Idoling!!! fans are clearly divided into 2 groups. Music and Variety. Both group holds on to very different views on things and how Idoling!!! should be going about in the future.
Even if you were summarizing about the whole user sentiment it does not apply to me.

And people who emphasize the variety aspect shouldn't even concern themselves with the discussion because it was never the topic at hand.

An issue arose apart from the discussion when a few people took offense to what I had to say about the 4th gen. and took it personal, when I was never bashing their taste by liking them, it's just a fact that they do not have as much talent that Maipuru and Rurika does.

Whether you emphasize variety over music is irrelevant in the case of 4th gen. because they are equally talent-less in both aspects.

Again, you may not think so out of your taste, however, that's not the viewpoint I'm going by, 4th gen. is most inept within the group, that's just reality.

Offline burglarnoone

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Re: The Idoling!!! Discussion Thread
« Reply #1115 on: October 15, 2011, 12:07:44 AM »
Jenus you confuse me you say -

"I have trained my thought process constantly where I just don't see things with much emotion any longer. I have mastered the technique of total objectivity you could say."
"I pride myself in being very objective whenever I can,"

If these statements of yours are true then please go back and read through your last few posts, they have unnecessary inflammatory/rude statements in them which to me come out of nowhere in relation to the posts you are responding to.
If you aren't a native english speaker then maybe you don't realise that how you are choosing to phrase certain things doesn't come across well.
But if English is your first language then please could you start using the techniques you have claimed to master  :P



Offline Jenus

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Re: The Idoling!!! Discussion Thread
« Reply #1116 on: October 15, 2011, 12:32:40 AM »
The use of profanity is to express my frustration towards some of you who seem to not understand where I come from, and has nothing to do with the degree of my objectivity within the posts themselves.  :P2 :P2 :P2 :P2 :P2

And please do not open a box of irrelevant pandora if you have nothing to add to the discussion itself, I have no desire to get into a pissing match.

Offline burglarnoone

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Re: The Idoling!!! Discussion Thread
« Reply #1117 on: October 15, 2011, 01:58:17 AM »
The use of profanity is to express my frustration towards some of you who seem to not understand where I come from, and has nothing to do with the degree of my objectivity within the posts themselves.  :P2 :P2 :P2 :P2 :P2

And please do not open a box of irrelevant pandora if you have nothing to add to the discussion itself, I have no desire to get into a pissing match.

Just so we are clear, im not trying to start anything i enjoy reading yours and others points of view, just trying to point out why people take umbridge with the tone of your responses, they come across as angry rather than passionate responses sometimes.

And with regards your first sentence i quote your own posts:

"Yuuna - She's the only 4th gen. member that is shaping into a decent character, and has the looks to go with it, she's a future ace."
"Whether you emphasize variety over music is irrelevant in the case of 4th gen. because they are equally talent-less in both aspects."

Do you understand where your coming from  :P



Offline Jenus

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Re: The Idoling!!! Discussion Thread
« Reply #1118 on: October 15, 2011, 02:02:28 AM »
"Yuuna - She's the only 4th gen. member that is shaping into a decent character, and has the looks to go with it, she's a future ace." MY TASTE
"Whether you emphasize variety over music is irrelevant in the case of 4th gen. because they are equally talent-less in both aspects." OBJECTIVE TALENT EVALUATION

Thank you for participating.

Offline SuzukiRyo

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Re: The Idoling!!! Discussion Thread
« Reply #1119 on: October 15, 2011, 02:10:11 AM »
People rarely watch 地上波 version, so here are some extras which only airing on 地上波 version




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