Here we go. This is what I was aiming for. This thread needs some nice discussion to bring it back to life.
I tend to believe that it's more than just a business decision for the members' graduation, because I don't see any reason for them to force out half the 1st gen. members merely to cut costs then turn around and add new members, makes no sense. I think it has more to do with how the members are coping as a team-player, and whether they are being a positive influence towards the group. Basically the staff doesn't want rotten apples in the group.
That's actually what I was trying to say. The Idoling!!! staff strikes me as being a very practical group, and thus, they make practical decisions that make sense. Business-wise, it doesn't make sense to push anyone out of the group. But, I don't agree that they would remove a member based on their compatibility and influences on the other members of the group. If they cared about the group's unity and chemistry, the would have never added new members. Even if a rotten apple develops in the group, it's much more economical to take disciplinary action and try to correct the misbehaving member, rather than just get rid of her. Besides, it's not really the Japanese way to just fire somebody and force them to leave. Instead, they make work conditions unfavorable to the employee until they decide to leave on their own. That's why I believe the decision to "graduate" is decided almost entirely by the members themselves.
I don't think it's bad at all that the decision to graduate is up to the members because so far none of them is showing signs that they even want to leave, probably realizing that quitting Idoling!!! is the kiss of death as far as their livelihood in show business is concerned. Out of the members that graduated, I'm only certain that Rumi and Michelle are the only ones who had the luxury to make a decision to quit, I'm rather convinced that the rest were forced out because they didn't fit in with the evolving group. Rumi quit due to health reasons, and while she may have had clashes with other members I don't think it was serious enough that staff would fire her. I think Kato didn't even try to get along with 2nd gen. and it cost her job. Eto was probably becoming a bit too big-headed for her own good if it wasn't any more obvious, and Takiguchi was just heading towards something entirely un-idol-like. The fact that Eto and Takiguchi aren't visually spectacular probably made the decision even easier for the staff. And let's not forget that Kato, Eto, and Takiguchi are all sub-par singers. I think Michelle made the decision to quit because she got along fine with other members, Michelle is a classic popular type who is rich and stylish, so why wouldn't the other members not want to hang around with her? Teenage girls love such types. Michelle probably didn't believe that being an idol is for her, and it makes sense knowing what her personality is like as well as her multi-cultural background.
The only reason why I said I think it's bad is because any member could leave at any given time. We really don't have any idea what goes on inside each members' head. But, like I said above, I don't believe that the staff would force anyone out of the group. A lot of the other things you said in this paragraph make it seem like you aren't familiar with the 2nd gen era.
They stated that Rumi left for "health reasons," but anyone who was a fan at the time knows that was complete BS. Rumi had a huge ego and an extremely volatile personality that could turn sour at any moment. Being the honest group that Idoling!!! is, many of the conflicts between Rumi and the other members frequently came to light on the TV show. Even at the 10th Live, Rurika mentioned something about getting into an argument with Rumi right before the 1st live. But, the bond that the 1st gen members built was so strong that even Rumi's bratty personality wasn't enough to break it. Even now, she still hangs out with the other 1st gen members outside of work. But, if you think about her personality, she's exactly the type who would get angry about a bunch of new kids coming in and riding on her coattail. By bringing in the 2nd gen members, the staff basically said, we can't be successful with just the 9 of you. Her pride was hurt. The timing of her graduation makes me believe that the staff started looking for the 3rd gen members, and that's what caused her to say enough is enough and decide to leave even before reaching the end of the contract.
Your statement about Kato couldn't be more wrong. Saya-nee was one of the most accepting of the 2nd gen. She got along well with them, and they all looked up to her like a big sister, hence the nickname "Saya-nee". But, there was always a generational gap between her and the younger members, and it probably became too big of an issue in her mind. It also didn't help that it was constantly brought up on the TV show. With her close friend Rumi gone, and even younger members coming in with the 3rd gen, she probably felt that it was time to move on.
Eto was a little brat, and Takiguchi was the exact opposite of an idol, but those are the characters that made them successful within Idoling!!! It wouldn't make sense for them to leave for those reasons. They most likely left Idoling!!! just because they had other plans. Eto wanted to become an actress, and Takiguchi was focusing more and more on comedy. The two of them even became a comedy duo shortly after leaving Idoling!!!
Michelle was the type who would be popular... among Western people. She was rich and stylish, but that also made her seem somewhat unapproachable. There was too much of a cultural gap between her and the other members, and it always made her seem separate from the rest of the group. There were so many times when her lack of knowledge of the Japanese language interfered with her ability to participate on the show. Adding her to the group was a gimmick, and it wasn't succeeding, so she left.
But if I had to predict one member that the staff is trying to get rid of, it would be Fonchi, because she was dissed hardcore in Gakkyukaing episode. Who would want to stay when you are being singled out by the staff like that? I'd feel so bad for Fonchi if she does leave because of that. Looking back on it, it's by far the most awkward and uncomfortable moment this past year.
The staff's not trying to get rid of her. They're looking for ways to motivate her because it's clear that she has lost her passion for Idoling!!! Sometimes, when your employees are underperforming, you have to call them out on it to light a fire under them. She keeps dropping hints that she wants to leave, and in my opinion, she's the most likely to leave when March comes.
Besides the first wave of lay-offs, I think Idoling for the most part is exercising the retain & develop the members approach, seeing no member has graduated for close to 3 years now. And who knows if anybody would graduate next year even after the 5th gen. is added, because nobody is showing any signs that they want to quit, that is if it is based on the belief that the decision is indeed up to the member. I'm very interested in how this will turn out though because it'll answer a lot of questions regarding who really does make the decision to graduate, although it seems clear based on the past 3 years that the members get to stick around as long as they don't get on the staff's bad side.
I agree for the most part. Idoling!!! has been doing a much better job of retaining their existing members than most other idol groups do. But, I still believe that, if they never added the 2nd gen members, all 9 of the 1st gen members would have stayed until the very end, which I will admit, might have been a few years ago if they stayed that way. Idoling!!! 2013 will be the ultimate proof for that belief.
This part is where I completely disagree with you SB with all due respect. Is 4th gen. getting their fair share of time compared to when there was only 1st gen.? Of course not, but at the same time 2nd gen. was faced with the same dilemma as well as the 3rd gen., yet the strong characters found their way to get the spotlight regardless so I just find it a bogus excuse whenever I hear that 4th gen. is not getting enough camera time to shine. And while the CS show may be the main stage, it's not the only one for the members to shine and get noticed by the fans, there's uRa segments, Gekkan Idoling, Shinahachi live, Numbering live, seasonal DVDs, radio shows, various other events etc., and when I take all of that into account in evaluating the 4th gen. there's not much I can say about them, they just don't have as much talent that 3rd gen. and some 2nd gen. members possess. You may say that Yokoyama and Tonooka add nothing to the variety aspect (I'm not so sure about that either, Yokoyama clearly has the ability to capture an audience as she has done at DTDX and Heyx3, and Tonooka simply abandoned variety by choice, so she can be entertaining if she chooses to and have so in the past), but they make up for it ten-fold with their singing prowess, and I just can't say the same for 4th gen. because they don't have a saving grace factor, they just don't stand out at anything. I don't think Nomoto and Ojima being good at dodgeball is going to cut it, they need to show a lot more. I'm not sure what you were trying to say at the end, it sounds like a contradiction. You say that 4th gen. has no screen time to shine, but then state right after that new members with talent will overshadow the current members. Doesn't that admit to the fact that 4th gen. is no good?
I'm not saying that 4th gen is good. I will wholeheartedly agree with you when you say that 3rd gen is better than 4th gen. What I'm saying is, there's no reason why 4th gen can't be good. Developing characters takes time and attention. Some people are naturally better and quicker at finding their spots than others. I never said that Tonooka and Yokoyama bring nothing to the variety show. I said they were able to have great moments because they were given the proper time and attention needed to find their niches on the variety show. The point I was trying to make was, even though many of the 1st gen members seemed just as dull and boring as the 4th gen members do, every 1st gen member, 1 through 9, found their own little character on the TV show, and it's because each was given enough time and attention to find it. There was no "extra baggage" that so many people seem to complain about with the current roster. Not being able to stand out from a large group is different from not being an interesting person. Almost everybody has something interesting to bring to the table. Sometimes, you just have to dig deeper to find it.
Let's do some quick math... 2nd gen had roughly 160 episodes (many of which featured just the 2nd gen), 14 Boukenoung episodes, Idoling!!! Nikki, uRa Idoling!!!, radio shows, etc. Yet, none of them really settled into their characters until the 1st gen members graduated. Even the incredible Amimi really didn't become the monster that she is until the 3rd gen era.
And, in case anyone's wondering, 3rd gen had roughly 120 episodes, and 4th gen has had 185 episodes so far. But, if you take away the 40 percent of episodes that are Shinahachi lives, that makes roughly 111 episodes.
Idoling!!! has always been an "idol-nurturing" project. Well, to properly nurture anything, it requires a lot of time and attention... Something they haven't been giving the members enough of lately. Yes, they got lucky with 3rd gen, but they're not always going to be that lucky.
It would be more reasonable if you just stated that you like the songs from that period better and I would not argue about such an opinion at all. I simply can't agree that 2nd gen. era was their peak. And it's not just about 3rd gen. either, 1st and 2nd gen. have progressed considerably since the 2nd gen. era as well, and the singles that came after the 2nd gen. era clearly are more polished and sounds better, in fact it's not even a comparison. 2nd gen. era songs for the most part sound amateurish. I would say the peak was prior to 4th gen. joining, because 4th gen. lowered the vocal level of the entire group significantly, not to mention steer the musical direction to the superficial style in catering to the youthful image of 4th gen. OMG what have you done, stupid staff!! No more kiddie-pop songs!!!
That would be reasonable. But, it's not true. In fact, I very much prefer Idoling!!!'s current songs over their older songs. But, not once did I say anything about any of Idoling!!!'s songs in this paragraph. Everybody sounds good on the track. I'm talking about live performances. Back then, they sang many songs from other artists, which means they had to adapt to many different singing styles. If you go back and watch the many different opening performances from the 2nd gen era, you'll see that they actually did a pretty good job with all of the cover songs.
I don't understand why you say that the addition of 4th gen directed Idoling!!!'s music to a more youthful image, especially when songs like Soushoku-kei Carnival, Houkago Telepathy, and Love Magic Fever are all from the 3rd gen era. If anything, they've been singing kiddie-pop songs from the beginning. Have you ever heard Ponkikki Medley?
I agree that Yokoyama and Kawamura probably sings without even thinking about the lyrics and its meaning, but I'm not so sure about Rumi and Michelle of all people only having the soul of singing. Rumi does sing with emotion but I don't know if that is enough to qualify her as being a soulful singer, because first of all, she's still a pedestrian singer skill-wise and such skill-level will not capture my heart. I have no opinion on Michelle, haven't seen her sing enough solo to really gauge anything about her singing soul.
See, this is where things get blurry. Like I said, I really have no idea about technical singing "talent". I only know the way I feel when I hear someone singing. To me, soulful singing has nothing to do with "skill" or "talent". It's all about feeling and the way a singer's voice touches me. To understand what I mean, you have to look past technicalities and just feel the sounds entering your head. This is where I always clash with people, because nobody really understands what I mean, and I don't really know how to describe it. All I can really say is, Rumi and Michelle's singing voices touched me in ways that no other members have since the two left.
I stand corrected, I think I disagree with this part the most, I like Rumi's singing voice too, but skill-wise, she's very pedestrian, and not even close to what Maipuru can do with her singing. I think it's too convenient for you to say that Rumi has soul but Maipuru doesn't just because you don't like Maipuru's singing voice. I'm not even sure why you would diss Maipuru for, all you had to say was you like Rumi's singing the most. And judging Maipuru's singing on one line of a song is rather puzzling, wouldn't it be more fair and accurate to judge her singing by her solos like Yuusha No Yuutsu? I wonder if Rumi can sing solo entirely for that song without gasping for oxygen. Omoi no Uta indeed is a great song, but it didn't move me as much as 3dome no Kinenbi did because the difference in the vocals' skill-wise is like night and day.
When did I say I didn't like Maipuru's singing voice? I love Maipuru's elegant singing voice, but it's best used in a controlled manner. Yuusha no Yuuutsu didn't have a really big climax. It stayed right around a level that's perfect for Endo. 3dome no Kinenbi was an incredible song, but who got the big climax solo? Rurika. I may have been a little to harsh on Maipuru, but I was really disappointed when I heard the live version of Konayuki ga Mau Machinami de. She sounded completely out of her element. I never said Koizumi was a better singer than Endo. I said Koizumi was a more soulful singer than Endo. Endo's singing is one where you listen in awe as she elegantly sings the words, whereas Koizumi's singing is the kind that hits you in the chest, making it preferrable for a solo that hits the powerful climax of a song.
Miyake does not have strong enough singing voice, and no training will make her into a singing diva that of Maipuru or even Rumi since it takes more than a strong vocal to be a great singer. Miyake will never catch up to Maipuru's level in her lifetime even if she had the talent. I'm sorry but this is just a silly suggestion that is very unrealistic. Besides, Miyake isn't some uninterested person who does nothing, she's the best pastry baker of the group, and while it's not much, her strengths still lie with the variety aspect more so than the live stage because she just doesn't have the presence of a diva. Miyake seems to want to pursue acting herself, but she has to show some work sample for me to comment on that.
Nobody in Idoling!!! will ever reach the level of skill that Maipuru has, but they can be trained to be at a level that's good enough to create a quality product. Music is an art, and as with any art, skill and talent aren't everything. There are so many other factors that come into play, and so many of them are subjective. My point was, Idoling!!! has lost its soul when it comes to singing, and the only member who seems like she has the potential to bring it back is Miyake. I'm not saying she will be nearly as good as Koizumi, but she has the potential to fill the gap that Koizumi left.
When has baking pastries become a part of Idoling!!!'s job? Even after all this time, Miyake is a big question mark on the variety show. She really doesn't do anything unless she's pushed into an opportunity to do something.
If there's a member you'd want to groom into a diva, no one is better candidate than Yurippe who is already a much better singer than Miyake is, and unlike Miyake, Yurippe has potential for growth. I look for Yurippe to take more part in live stage and eventually become one of the aces.
I really don't understand where you're coming from with this... I have never heard anything from Tachibana that sounded particularly special. She tends to do weird things with her voice. To me, she has always seemed average, at best.