[Discuss] Live vocals or Lip-syncing?

[hina]

I definitely prefer live too. But yeah as mentioned already some songs are just too hard to sing live with those fast and complicated dance routines.

From what I know from some fans who watch the concerts, they really do sing live. But yeah, when the DVD comes out the audio is already edited.  The good thing is, there are those performances where they leave the live vocals intact. Most of which are performances of the best singers from the group like Yuka and Takamina to name a few.

[Sayange]

So they probably pick and chose which performances to 'fix.'  Also i'm very sure most LoD stuff is live(though I have my doubts about S2) by most i mean maybe 1 or 2 tracks not but you can hear breathing on these so yh...

Or in case on Nontii's birthday you can hear her 'slobber away' some tears  (for which Kana repeatedly hit her during the MC afterwards 

So they do have the mic's open and yes you sure can here a difference in quality at times.

Oh man, that reminded me when Sayaka sand Mushi No Ballad in the stage after the team shuffle announcement... You could only hear her crying instead on singing  That was intense and touching, though 

[natme]

I know this thread has been dead for over year, but I am new here and would like to add my thoughts.

I believe that if something cannot be performed live with all of its parts (dancing, singing, etc), then it shouldn't be performed at all. What is the point of going to or paying for a concert or a show if the group is only going to do part of the performance live. I fully expect the bands I go to see in concert to actually be playing their instruments and/or singing the lyrics regardless of the crazy show they decide to put on. Part of the spectacle is that they CAN do all of these things at once. Hendrix's teeth solo wouldn't have been considered amazing if he faked it (Yes, a lot of it involves hammer-ons, but it is still amazing). If those girls can't sing the lyrics and do the choreography at the same time, then it either shouldn't have designed to be outside the limits of the performers or they shouldn't be on stage.

I do, however, allow some leeway on this issue with members of AKB48 that are young and new. I wouldn't mind if some of the new and young members had to temporarily lip sync the songs until they got used to the stage. It is understandable that it would take some time getting used to the stage before they would be able to fully perform.

Here is the video to one of Hendrix's teeth solos in case you don't know what I am talking about:

[SomethingWild]

I know this thread has been dead for over year, but I am new here and would like to add my thoughts.

Excellent  To all new members, feel free to revive any old discussion threads with new insights!

While I do agree that it might be painful to watch live vocals, it's also very rewarding when your fave girl improves.

Good point. We still get that with the new recordings and re-recordings for new concerts and such, but it would definitely be nice to hear more live vocals.


Does anybody have the clip of Komori Mika and Kobayashi Kana singing Wagamama na Nagareboshi LIVE during an LOD? That was the most painful performance ever. Komori was still a new KKS and Kana just isn't a very good singer.  I'd love to see it again.

More live footage that must be preserved:



Download

If those girls can't sing the lyrics and do the choreography at the same time, then it either shouldn't have designed to be outside the limits of the performers or they shouldn't be on stage.

The WH clip above is a nice example of how it can work. They aren't the best vocalists, but the dance is simple, the pace of the song is good and they all have a short solo line as well. This makes it enjoyable to watch 

[AmberSan]

Most definitely live singing.

Too bad that in most of their concerts (not the stage ones), they're lip-synching, even in songs without difficult choreography.

 

[winner]

^^This it?


Maybe it's because they lip-sync so much. When they do sing it live it feels surprisingly good sometimes, like the ones with the live band in the WH/FK and the older no3b Girl's Factory episodes.

[SomethingWild]

^ OMG yes, it has to be  It's not as bad as I remembered it to be. How cute is Komori in that performance  Thanks 

[MaxMcKay]

I find lip-syncing absolutely despicable
If the performers are gonna lip-sync, why buy concert tix when you can get the exact same thing from singles & albums which cost less?
lipsyncing=depriving fans of live performance experience which =pulling a scam on the fans; a fraud, plain & simple

[natme]

lipsyncing=depriving fans of live performance experience which =pulling a scam on the fans; a fraud, plain & simple

I completely agree. Paying to see someone lip-sync is a scam since anyone can do it.

Too bad that in most of their concerts (not the stage ones), they're lip-synching, even in songs without difficult choreography

I knew they did lip-syncing, but I didnt know it was that prevalent. I may have to rethink my support of AKB48. I cannot support a group that scams its fans.

[SomethingWild]

I disagree.

If the performers are gonna lip-sync, why buy concert tix when you can get the exact same thing from singles & albums which cost less?

Have you seen AKB48 perform? The sheer energy of the performance, seeing the girls up close, the atmosphere of the venue... all these things make for an awesome experience, despite the lack of live vocals.

I knew they did lip-syncing, but I didn't know it was that prevalent. I may have to rethink my support of AKB48. I cannot support a group that scams its fans.

I don't like the term 'scam.' Most people know what to expect, so if they wouldn't like it they wouldn't go to their show in the first place.
Secondly, there may be more live performances than we think. A lot of the theater shows have live vocals and these are still the majority of AKB48's performances. The performances at promo events are not live, but that is to be expected.

As far as concerts go, I am not 100% what the deal is.
- They could alter the audio for the DVD releases
- The girls could sing along with the song (i.e. sing live) but there may be a dub track involved as well...

I don't know, but my main point is that AKB48 does more live stuff than we get to see. Saying they scam people is pretty shallow reasoning.

[natme]

I don't like the term 'scam.' Most people know what to expect, so if they wouldn't like it they wouldn't go to their show in the first place.
Secondly, there may be more live performances than we think. A lot of the theater shows have live vocals and these are still the majority of AKB48's performances. The performances at promo events are not live, but that is to be expected.

I don't know, but my main point is that AKB48 does more live stuff than we get to see. Saying they scam people is pretty shallow reasoning.

Well if the Japanese don't really care then I guess it really wouldn't be considered a scam over there. I dont know if you're American, but we fully expect our musical artists to actually sing the lyrics and we feel scammed if they don't. Assuming you're American, remember all the flak that Ashley Simpson got for getting caught lip-syncing on SNL? She was booed at every future event she did and it killed her career.

[SomethingWild]

I'm not American, but yes, I remember the Ashley Simpson stuff.

Yeah, I guess there could be an additional cultural element involved as well. I guess there is a scale between what you are used to and what you expect. If a concert does not live up to your expectations, perhaps based on previous experiences, you're gonna get disappointed.

[natme]

I'm not American, but yes, I remember the Ashley Simpson stuff.

Yeah, I guess there could be an additional cultural element involved as well. I guess there is a scale between what you are used to and what you expect. If a concert does not live up to your expectations, perhaps based on previous experiences, you're gonna get disappointed.

I guess I'll just have to accept it as a cultural difference since that is how they perform in Japan and because their goal isn't to scam me. I still greatly prefer live vocals though even if it doesn't sound as good as lip-syncing.

[SomethingWild]

I still greatly prefer live vocals though even if it doesn't sound as good as lip-syncing.

I think we can all agree on that 

If you get Yuka, Haachan, Kasai, Yuki, Sayaka, etc. involved it might even sound better than lip-syncing, because you'll be able to hear their emotions through their singing.

So yeah, more lives plz. If anybody finds more live clips, feel free to post them here as well.

[AmberSan]

^
Speaking of live singing...
Mushi no Balad from K5:



 

[Rayle]

It depends on the context.
Take for example the dance to SNSD's ITNW. It's pretty badass, especially, the ending breakdown.



Could they ever perform this choreography without lip-syncing? Not a chance. Their live performances of ITNW today also have watered-down choreography. And if SNSD never lip-synced a day in their life, then I never would have gotten to see the above, EVER.
natme said "If those girls can't sing the lyrics and do the choreography at the same time, then it either shouldn't have designed to be outside the limits of the performers or they shouldn't be on stage," and artists like BoA have the chops to be able to sing and dance at the same time, but to watch BoA let loose completely on a dance without having to hold back due to singing constraints is something special.

There's also logistics to consider. Wireless headsets just do not capture sound well, and even wireless hand mics can suffer problems when trying to stage a huge arena-or-larger concert in which performers are football fields apart. There have been concert performances where I felt underwhelmed because all of the static coming through the mic was too distracting. AKB48's Lay Down is a favorite of mine because of how the girls get to slouch around sexily, but the way they're grouped around the mics would sound absolutely awful live, with people fading in and out depending on their proximity to the mics. Trying to mix that would be a nightmare, and the only way to fix that would be to change Lay Down's staging to something way more boring. No thanks. As BarrieV pointed out, atmosphere is very important. Consider the following performance:



Lip-synced. But damn, Ai is just dancing so dynamically, and the fact that she hit those notes even in studio is amazing, (plus, because it's a shuffle, that recording isn't available on a CD) and the arrangement by itself is so frantic that it gets my blood thrumming. Sometimes it's more important to preserve the spirit of the song, even if lip-syncing is required. Queen never performed the "mamma mia" portion of Bohemian Rhapsody live because it simply could not be recreated live: the original portion involved each singer dubbing over their own lines 20 or so times. Similarly, Perfume get vocoded for their songs, even live, because it just wouldn't be the same with natural vocals.

That said, if a performance's highlight is mainly in the singing, then of course it should be performed without lip-sync. I'm thinking of things like the adlibs in Taeyeon's Hush Hush, IU's Good Day, and BEG's Sixth Sense. On the AKB48 side, songs like MARIA and Bird. If the girls can handle singing and dancing easier choreographies live, then by all means have them do so.

[natme]

It depends on the context.
Take for example the dance to SNSD's ITNW. It's pretty badass, especially, the ending breakdown.



Could they ever perform this choreography without lip-syncing? Not a chance. Their live performances of ITNW today also have watered-down choreography. And if SNSD never lip-synced a day in their life, then I never would have gotten to see the above, EVER.

I understand that without lip-syncing you wouldn't be able to see the amazing choreography, but I still don't think that is acceptable. Perhaps they could work in more instrumental sections into the songs, so more difficult choreography can be performed without sacrificing the singing aspect of the performance.

I am a huge rock and metal fan, so most of my references will come from artists in those genres because of my personal preferences and because their song design is what allows them to avoid lip-syncing. It is really damn hard to play a very technical part of a song on guitar, bass, etc if that player is also the lead singer. During those parts, there are generally no vocals (the guitar/drum/bass solo heard in most rock and metal songs) or they have a different member of the band focus on that only. Geddy Lee of Rush is the bassist, keyboardist, and lead singer for the band and during tough instrumental parts in a lot of Rush's songs, there is no singing. Also, Rush planned their songs ahead of time so there isn't bass and keyboards/synth at the same time since Geddy Lee has to switch instruments. YYZ is a great example of this, the whole song is an instrumental since the band completely focuses on the instruments.

(I'm not going to imbed the video since this isn't the rock music or metal thread, but I will supply the links for a reference.)
youtube.com/watch?v=jKBLSkN2sRk

There's also logistics to consider. Wireless headsets just do not capture sound well, and even wireless hand mics can suffer problems when trying to stage a huge arena-or-larger concert in which performers are football fields apart. There have been concert performances where I felt underwhelmed because all of the static coming through the mic was too distracting. AKB48's Lay Down is a favorite of mine because of how the girls get to slouch around sexily, but the way they're grouped around the mics would sound absolutely awful live, with people fading in and out depending on their proximity to the mics. Trying to mix that would be a nightmare, and the only way to fix that would be to change Lay Down's staging to something way more boring. No thanks. As BarrieV pointed out, atmosphere is very important. Consider the following performance:

You bring up a good point here. Those wireless headsets are definitely not designed to work in a concert environment. Being limited by the technology can be a real downer since it forces the performers to do something like lip-syncing when they wouldn't need to do it if it wasn't for the bad technology available to them. From my own personal experiences, the hand mics d0 work pretty well even in large arenas. I can't recall any major technical issues with the mics or sound problems when I saw Van Halen at the United Center (largest indoor arena in the US in terms of physical size). David Lee Roth generally uses the wired mics with the stand though since they are part of his performance. The cord is also not really a hazard with only 4 people on stage versus a dozen or so like in AKB48, so they can't really have wired mics all over the stage. Now before someone brings up the "but Van Halen uses pre-recorded synthesizer in Jump during most of their concerts", I'm going to say that them doing that really pisses me off. Eddie can play the synthesizer live for Jump since he has done it plenty of times, but for some reason he decides not to most of the time. Perhaps he loves his guitar too much. This issue is probably the only thing I could accept a lot of lip-syncing for due to it not being a limitation of the performers.

Queen never performed the "mamma mia" portion of Bohemian Rhapsody live because it simply could not be recreated live: the original portion involved each singer dubbing over their own lines 20 or so times. Similarly, Perfume get vocoded for their songs, even live, because it just wouldn't be the same with natural vocals.

I probably should have been more clear in my original post, but everyone always exaggerates. I can accept lip-syncing or something pre-recorded if it is for something minor such as the "mamma mia" line in Bohemian Rhapsody since it is only a small portion of the overall song, but if Queen decided to lip-sync a good portion of the song or just pre-record Brian May's guitar then I would consider that to be unacceptable.

That said, if a performance's highlight is mainly in the singing, then of course it should be performed without lip-sync. I'm thinking of things like the adlibs in Taeyeon's Hush Hush, IU's Good Day, and BEG's Sixth Sense. On the AKB48 side, songs like MARIA and Bird. If the girls can handle singing and dancing easier choreographies live, then by all means have them do so.

As in the case of AKB48, they are a JPop group. Almost all of their material focuses on the singing and the dancing. Obviously some songs rely on one more than other and vice versa, but both are still a main part of the song. I obviously don't blame them for using pre-recorded instruments (I'm assuming they don't have a live band with them all the time) or for them not playing the instruments themselves since that isn't the main focus of their performance.

I think your argument is perfectly valid, but it ultimately just comes down to personal preference and what you think the material should focus on the most.

[Scatterbrain]

I love their live singing. Even if it's not the highest quality ever, it's nice to hear the girls singing and giving us emotion thru their voices ^^

[Rayle]

^To natme:
Yeah, I've always favored dancing over singing when it comes to that sort of performance. (I am a Fred Astaire fan after all  )
However, it drives me nuts that Team K band song Tomo Yo appears to be dubbed over on the stage DVD (Kasai never moves that harmonica lol) because as an orch dork myself I do want to hear if they can legitimately play instruments. Has anyone uploaded a LOD of that song?  At least Team B's band song Idol no Yoake seems live on the stage DVD, but it's definitely autotuned if not dubbed in the AX2010 performance, not to mention @#$%! Harugon's snare is definitely fake in both versions and not played by her at all because that girl obviously never properly played a snare roll in her life. asdf. 

I definitely think making proper instrument-playing bands mime is wrong, though. Who knows why on earth they do that in Kpop?

After School did a drumline and tap dance routine, and in most performances the backing track is so loud you can't hear their drumming and tapping at all. I can't tell if this is a good or bad thing, because from the few clips I've seen where you can kind of hear their own playing/tapping they don't sound very together at all. (And their "snares" are these really shitty tom-tom things  ) So they look much more impressive with the backing track turned up, but knowing that they actually aren't that good in reality puts a damper on things. Yet I still don't know if I want to the the actual messy results.

[MaxMcKay]

Another good live

See? AKB48 CAN DO LIVE PERFORMANCES

What I hope is that the next AKB48 concert is with a live band, like MM, Buono, & no3b has done before

Better still: AKB48 Concert, Live & Unplugged/Acoustic 

EDIT:
Can anyone tell if this is live vocals or Lip-syncing?