We continued discussing the topic in IRC, and I decided to post some (almost all) of it for everyone to read. However, I will edit it into a more reading-friendly form...
(beginning from my rant)
<shirenu> like to someone like tsuji or miki i'd love to say, if you don't even know their names how can you comment on the current MM?
<Aluexander> yea that's what got to me, it's like you haven't even tried to follow them and you think the reason that they are suffering is cause they weren't as big of rivals as you all. i get that it is important to distinguish yourself. like kei had constructive criticism. she said she went to a recent play, maybe stacies, but she had to sit in the back and found it tough to tell who was who. so she encouraged them to vary their appearance. this is a reasonable critique.
gaki said something intelligent though. she said every musume will think her time in the group was the best but gaki thinks that the current musume is the best because they are the most recent evolution. she likes to see musume continually evolve. that's 11 years of wisdom right there.
[18:44] <shirenu> gaki-san <3333 she gets it. she always has ;_; <3
[18:45] <Aluexander> the worst part though was that yuko thing. that got to me. why set up aichan as the fall girl
[18:46] <Pauekn> Wasn't Gaki a fan before she joined, too?
[18:46] <Aluexander> yea. she looked up to nacchi
[18:46] <Pauekn> I'm interested in seeing how Fukuchan will do when she graduates
Perhaps she will continue being a big fan even after!
[18:46] <Aluexander> actually it was interesting though seeing the difference of opinions across gens and girls. i think gaki will stay interested in the group and how it evolves at least as long as eripon is in it lol
[18:47] <Aluexander> nacchi said that she knew girls who looked up to her had joined the group but she deliberately tried to scare them anyways. she said she enjoyed that scary image. she seemed to be the one who really liked the competitive aspect most. probably because she won the competitions lol
miki said she wants to see a morning musume where she can watch it and laugh oh those two hate each other. she wants to see them at each others' throats.
[18:49] <shirenu> first she'd have to learn their names
[18:49] <Pauekn> O.O;
[18:49] <Pauekn> Lol!
[18:49] <shirenu> it's like when ex-MM fans say, oh if only this or that i'd become interested again. don't bother, you wouldn't
[18:50] <Aluexander> it's a real shame though because when i got into musume and was watching h!m i really had this feel like all gens are connected. even when they graduate they still support them. yuko and rika helped eri so much
[18:51] <shirenu> yeah alue. i think the loss of hello morning is vital here too
[18:51] <Aluexander> yea that's what i was thinking, as they kept saying rivalry rivalry... it's promotion that should be the real narrative. give me back h!m and musume will be popular again
[18:52] <Pauekn> This is something I usually don't say because it's very ignorant, but I usually don't care about anything pre 5th gen :S - I guess that a fan need to feel that MM is a tradition that have been following continuously from the gen they loved. And if they have one gen where they didn't care, they can't feel the tradition anymore, and thus won't like what they thought was "the good old MM"
[18:53] <Aluexander> yea that can happen but i wanted to expect a higher commitment from the og. like grandparents to their grandchildren. imagine a grandmother saying i haven't learned the names of my grandkids yet lol. i keep hoping that our girls now when they graduate won't be like that. they'll still love their group and look forward to its future. i think sayu and gaki will be like that i hope
[18:55] <Pauekn> Me too. And I'm putting an EXTRA hope up for Fukuchan!
[18:59] <Chibs> what exactly was it that pissed you off alex?
[19:00] <Aluexander> the whole program, that space shower sp. i didn't like the narrative they set up. i didn't like the way they made aichan responsible for musume losing its edge. i didn't like the indoctrination camp feel at the end where the 9ki and 10ki had to cry because they realized they were bringing dishonor to the great og.
[19:01] <Pauekn> What do you mean by "losing it's edge"? Do you mean not as popular as before?
[19:01] <Aluexander> meaning that they didn't have the competitive spirit that would make them stand out. this is a common argument on forums too. they blame ai for that because she was boring and tried to make it too comfortable family style, in their opinions
[19:02] <Pauekn> Yeah. I've heard that. But I liked her "boringness", or rather: I liked the "comfortable family"
[19:02] <Aluexander> i didn't expect to see that kind of logic recycled on this sp, esp with that yuko comment that supported her to her face and criticized her behind her back. that was the worst part of the sp for me
[19:02] <Chibs> well miki i understand and tsuji i guess too. the people invested in momusu are yuko, kei, rika, yossie and the gokkies, oh yaguchi also
[19:04] <Aluexander> i don't really agree. maybe rika and yuko in some ways. i did like yossy's input too though, always cool yossy. she said that the senpai tried to tell them they weren't rivals enough, but yossy said that she always thought they were overblowing it lol
...
[19:06] <Aluexander> but then that's what gets me a bit, because sayu and reina have to take that old gen logic and force it on the 9ki and 10ki saying this is the only way you can be great. or at least that's what they did in the sp
[19:07] <Chibs> well a bit of competitive spirit is good
[19:07] <Aluexander> i do agree competition is good, but i think they have it and they can be friends at the same time
[19:07] <T0FU> well i think it was easier to be competitive when they had haromoni and they had the food contests and stuff
[19:07] <Aluexander> yea, that's the real issue i'll always come back to, it's haromoni not anything else lol and timing and luck
[19:08] <Chibs> and promotion
[19:08] <Aluexander> those are all more important factors than "rivalry is the only reason and because aichan didn't cultivate that, we declined"
[19:31] <Aluexander> reina and sayu asked the og about how much they should scold the new kids, reina says she was afraid of becoming the unfun mean one. and kaori and rika are like, you mean you are afraid of becoming us lol. they said don't worry, it's good for them and it can be funny later when you talk in mcs
[19:31] <Pauekn> Was Kaori unfun and mean? :S
[19:31] <Aluexander> no but maybe reina and sayu thought so, just cause she was the authority figure. sayu said it is tiring scolding people all the time and kaori said that's how i felt with you and reina lol
[19:46] <shirenu> btw alue, so did sayu kinda defend mm like "i'm not sure that would be the right direction" or sth? because i said something like that in her thread ....
[19:47] <Aluexander> you could tell she wasn't sure. like she wants to be a good leader and take the lessons from before, but she's not trying to force things either. she understands the group more than anyone else right now, so when she was telling the 9ki "oh rivalry is important", she was also saying "but i think we already have it. it's just a matter of bringing that competitive spirit forward so everyone can see it". she also seemed like she wanted to balance the fun atmosphere of the group with the senpai-kohai levels. she wasn't sure it should be too much in either direction. but i think the atmosphere for the 9ki and 10ki after listening to all the lectures from the og all day and then having sayu and reina recap at the end was such a way that of course they would cry. like reina said at the end "ok so now what are you going to do to make musume great" and that's all that pressure and feelings like "oh we haven't been living up to this". that's what made me feel like it was an indoctrination camp lol. but reina and sayu do have more nuanced views, they are just trying to figure out how to draw lessons from the past
[19:53] <Aluexander> it's probably good for them to learn the promote yourself spirit that they were already learning on black variety, but more important than promoting themselves is for the company to promote them. well it's all important but i just don't want them to feel that this is the only issue, it all comes down to the girls' effort alone and in order to make it you gotta be at each others' throats. nacchi really seemed to relish that. she said we all hated each other and never went out to eat together, but when we got on stage we flipped a switch and had a unity you couldn't see anywhere else. to her i guess that was something that she really looks back on and likes
[19:54] <Pauekn> 18:54 <+Aluexander> and in order to make it you gotta be at each others' throats <-- Is that what you believe, or what you hope the girls won't believe?
[19:54] <Aluexander>
that's what i hope they don't believeAmen!