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Offline yokotapioka

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« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2005, 08:39:17 PM »
... ehm .....  any wrc fanz here???  
or jgtc or ... i don't know  ... d1 championship ...

eh ....  about  nascar .... im not a big fan of nascar because ... it's so "american" ... i mean .. big heavy cars round a circle track ...

Offline ctz

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« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2005, 10:34:39 PM »
WRC isn't so fun to watch because all cars drive one after another against the time... There's no excitement in the same way as in F1 or other series on track.
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Offline amuse

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« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2005, 07:36:17 AM »
I'd watch JGTC (called Super GT now) if I got coverage here. Speed Channel shows too much nascar ever since Fox bought them. I remember awhile back Speed said they would show JGTC hightlights but I guess not anymore :(

I have to watch Best Motoring and Hot Version to get my dose of japanese car action :D
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Offline elgie

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« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2005, 12:05:48 AM »
Quote from: TheQuickening
What a sucky day for the Renault team.  Both Fisichella and Alonso were completely dominating during, like 75% of the race only to both end up being out of the race.  


And BTW.. WHAT THE HELL WAS FUCKIN' FISICHELLA THINKIN' ABOUT??????!!!!! Alonso was told to pass by him, they're supposed to be in the same team and he kept blocking the road!!!!  :x  :x bof I know they wouldn't have won anyway but man, some team spirit!  :cry:

R.I.P. Jabronisaur

Offline TheQuickening

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« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2005, 04:26:55 AM »
He was only told to let Alonso pass a few seconds before he actually did it.  Remember, they might be teammates, but it is STILL a race won by an individual driver.  No team orders allowed.

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Offline elgie

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« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2005, 12:15:52 PM »
But it was clear he was having problems from several laps before, and he made Alonso lose his advantage to Montoya. It was a stupid move.

R.I.P. Jabronisaur

Offline amuse

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« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2005, 10:54:52 AM »
What a horrible US GP race this past weekend. Everyone seems to blame Ferrari for not allowing the chicane to be added but it's not their fault Michelin fucked up. They had the better tire throughout most of the season, but lately they seem to be having reliability problems. The whole race was a disgrace. :( Also the fans who threw things onto the track are idiots. Ferrari, Jordan, and Minardi are just doing their job. At least the 2 Ferraris didn't just cruise around the track but instead fought each other to the point of almost taking each other out.

I wonder how many Michelin engineers are fired now  :lol:
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Offline ctz

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« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2005, 03:54:21 PM »
FIA should have a way to solve these kind of situations. This Indy GP was the worst possible outcome.

Why couldn't they let Michelin teams have new sets of tyres and offer Bridgestone teams the same chance to get new tyres. Or just get that chicane there... Yea, it may have been not 100% fair to Ferrari, but it would have been a smaller loss.

I never thought they would let the race end up being this kind of joke :(
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Offline TheQuickening

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« Reply #28 on: June 21, 2005, 01:01:46 AM »
PRETTY BIG RANT COMING UP.  PREPARE YOURSELVES.

Quote from: amuse
What a horrible US GP race this past weekend. Everyone seems to blame Ferrari for not allowing the chicane to be added but it's not their fault Michelin fucked up. [/b] They had the better tire throughout most of the season, but lately they seem to be having reliability problems. The whole race was a disgrace. :( Also the fans who threw things onto the track are idiots.  Ferrari, Jordan, and Minardi are just doing their job. At least the 2 Ferraris didn't just cruise around the track but instead fought each other to the point of almost taking each other out.[/b]

I wonder how many Michelin engineers are fired now  :lol:

Of course everyone's going to blame Ferrari.  Considering how dominant they've been over the past few years (not including this year), a lot of fans see the FIA as favouring Ferrai and doing Ferrari's bidding.   The real fans, however, those of us who actually follow the sport know that, as you so eloquently put it, it was Michelin who fucked up.  Michelin, unlike Bridgestone (who were the tire suppliers for the Ferrari, Jordan, and Minardi cars, in case anyone didn't know) did not do any serious testing of their tires on the Indy course.  The section of the track at the heart of this is a right hand turn on the oval part of the track.  It is, many would say, the longest section of track where you go absolutely FULL OUT on acceleration in any of the entire F1 tracks.  The fact that this particular turn is banked (i.e. at an angle of, I think 45-60 degrees) puts a LOT of extra stress on the tires.  Simply put, Michelin were overconfident in their tires, and it bit them in the ass when they fucked up.  You'd think that they'd have done some extra testing/strengthening of their tires after last year's USGP when Ralf Schumacher lost control of his Williams car (ON THAT EXACT CORNER, MIND YOU) and suffered one of the scariest and most dangerous crashes of the season.  But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.  Rather than ENSURE that it wasn't the fault of thier tires, Michelin just automatically assumed it was some other problem and that they were in the clear.

The fans who threw the shit onto the track were unaware of the situation with the tires, and were extremely pissed off and frustrated because they'd been severly screwed out of a good race.  Many of them had travelled from S. America, Canada, and other parts of the country.  They had shelled out $100+ for their tickets/hotels/etc.  And they got fucking gypped.  Does that make what they did right?  Of course not.  But, IMHO, it makes it understandable.  

The Ferrari boys almost DID take each other out.  If they had, imagine the podium...Jordan 1st and 2nd, and MINARDI!!! THEY'RE FIRST PODUIM FINISH IN WHO KNOWS HOW LONG!!! IF EVER!!!  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

Quote from: ctz
FIA should have a way to solve these kind of situations. This Indy GP was the worst possible outcome.

Why couldn't they let Michelin teams have new sets of tyres and offer Bridgestone teams the same chance to get new tyres. Or just get that chicane there... [/b]Yea, it may have been not 100% fair to Ferrari, but it would have been a smaller loss.

I never thought they would let the race end up being this kind of joke :(


You know what, they SHOULD have a procedure for solving a problem like this.  Unfortunately, they don't.  Why?  Because it's only been in the last few years that F1 has had more than one company supplying tires to the teams.  For the longest time, Bridgestone was the sole tire supplier for F1.  Everyone got the same tires, everyone (in that sense) was on equal footing.  However, a few years ago (maybe 5 or 6?), a few teams fought to allow Michelin enter as a "competitor" to Bridgestone.  At first it was only a couple of teams that took Michelin over Bridgestone.  However, because of their superior performance in the EARLY STAGES of the race, more and more teams switched from Bridgestone to Michelin.  Think of it this way:

Michelin tires are like a gas stove.  They perform REALLY well right out of the gate.  However, they also have a tendency to "blow up" if pushed too hard (like this year at Indy and when Raikkonen's tire blowing out on the final lap of the European GP 3 weeks ago).  

Bridgestone tires are like electric stoves.  They take a lot longer to reach peak performance (usually about 20 laps or so into the race), but they're a lot more realiable/sturdy in the long run.  Bridgestones also have out-performed their Michelin counterparts with their "intermediate" tires and their "rain" weather tires.

Giving the Michelin teams a new set of tires would have done nothing to help, because they would STILL have been made by Michelin.  The problem wasn't a defect in this particular set of tires.  The problem was that Michelin built an INFERIOR tire compared to the Bridgestones.  It's not that the tires Michelin weren't good.  They just weren't GOOD ENOUGH to endure this course.

As far as building the chicane goes, there likely wasn't enough time to build one, considering that the tire problem was announced by Michelin ONLY on Friday afternoon/evening (at the earliest).  They would have had to have designed the chicane, build it, and then allow all the drivers from all the teams to have a few laps driving around the new course (not just the chicane, but the entire course) in order to get a feel for it.  And they would have had to have done this within 36 hours (between Friday afternoon/evening to Sunday at around noon, when the race was scheduled to start).  Logistically, this would have been next to impossible to do.

Another, more simple reason why it wasn't built was that it was basically against the FIA rules to do it.  Basically the rules said that it's unfair to change the course just because a team/teams did not come with the proper equipment and therefore cannot compete safely.  It's not fair to the teams who DID come properly prepared, so the change to the course was not permitted.  As an example, would it be fair, say, for MLB to mandate that ALL baseball stadiums MUST be build with a dome (non-retractable), or that all ballgames MUST be played at night because a few players have trouble seeing flyballs outdoors on a sunny day?  Or how about making the hockey puck glow a bright, neon colour just because American audiences can't see a black puck on a white ice surface?  
Funny, they don't seem to have trouble distinguishing black and white most of the time.  But I digress.
Bottom line, according to the FIA, if you don't come with the PROPER equipment, that's YOUR problem, not ours.  Obviously, the teams and drivers who withdrew are not to blame here.  Many of them said they'd take the chance and wanted to race.  But Michelin wouldn't allow it because they knew that they brought an INFERIOR product to the race, and they didn't want to risk all those lives (not to mention the lawsuits and bad press for them), should their tires fail.

All of this shit could have been avoided if there was only a SINGLE tire supplier for all the teams, like it was with Bridgestone before Michelin came onto the scene.  Bridgestone has been involved in competitive racing WAY longer than Michelin. They've got tons more experience with Champ Car, the IRL and NASCAR (dunno if they're in rally racing or GP racing).  Apparent rumors have actually had the FIA considering going back to only one tire provider within the next few years.  Let's hope it's Bridgestone.

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...Barrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr-be-cuuuuuuuuuuuuue

Offline JaisBane

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« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2005, 03:56:55 AM »
Woah, Indy does not have a 45-60 degree banking.  It has a 9 degree 12 minutes banking, which is the smallest banking of any major oval track venue in America.  Daytona International Speedway has the largest banking, and that's only 31 degrees.  At Daytona, you need to be going a minimum of 80mph in order to even stay on the track.  After 35 degrees the minimum speed increases exponentially and the amount of g-forces exerted on the human body reach dangerous levels.  But, I digress, this post is supposed to be about Indy, F1, and the US GP.  First off, Michellin is going to get no sympathy from any Americans about a tire that can't even be raced on the smallest banked track in America.  Second, what the hell were they thinking?  Not only is this their 6th outing at this GP, but the fact that problems were going to occur on the banked sections of the track should have been obvious.  Michellin builds their tires with an unconventional method which is more suscetible to extreme g-force conditions than other methods, and this suscetibility was proven at last years' USGP.  

Moreover, of course the banked sections are going to have more extreme g-forces, that's the whole point!  Back before cars had front and rear spoilers that generated 3,000lbs of downforce they used banking so that the cars could go faster around turns without spinning out.  As speeds increased but the size of tracks remained the same, the amount of banking was increased until it was determined that anymore would produce unsafe racing conditions.  In the 1970s an infield section was added to Daytona because in the Daytona 200 (a motorcycle race), entrants were reaching speeds of 220mph (the AMA Superbike Series boycotted Daytona this year when requests for a redesigned infield section went unheeded and instead the Supersport bikes raced on a prototype redesign).  

That Michellin paid no attention to American Racing's History and their own history when designing their tires is ridiculous.  It's also ridiculous that the only Michellin supplied teams that did any tire testing on Indy were Felipe Massa and Anthony Davidson.  Michellin's actions were that of pure negligence and their demands and reactions to the FIA were completely unjustified.  The safety issue is no different from a torrentional downpoor opening and michellin teams retiring due to inferior tires.  The nature of F1 is that if you come, you race no matter the circumstances.  Michellin's, and the teams that followed Michellin's, actions disappoint me terribly.  I had been a Renault and Jarno Trulli supporter this season, but now I'm putting my support behind Ferrari and Rubens Barriccello until they atone for this. :x

Offline amuse

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« Reply #30 on: June 21, 2005, 04:24:52 AM »
Quote
The reason for this debacle is clear. Each team is allowed to bring two types of tyre: one an on-the-limit potential race winner, the other a back-up which, although slower, is absolutely reliable. Apparently, none of the Michelin teams brought a back-up to Indianapolis. They subsequently announced they were flying in new tyres from France but then claimed that these too were unsafe.

http://www.formula1.com/news/3209.html

The Michelin teams didn't even bring a backup set of tires for the race weekend :(
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Offline yokotapioka

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« Reply #31 on: June 21, 2005, 02:55:15 PM »
i don't know .... i think that all about that tires .. is a bullshit ..

Offline ctz

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« Reply #32 on: June 21, 2005, 04:26:06 PM »
It seems the teams have to pay the price. They should have had a backup tires and they according to FIA, they didn't inform the race managers about their act beforehand.


Quote from: TheQuickening

Another, more simple reason why it wasn't built was that it was basically against the FIA rules to do it. Basically the rules said that it's unfair to change the course just because a team/teams did not come with the proper equipment and therefore cannot compete safely.


Yep, rules are rules, but I thought FIA would show a little more flexibility here. Now it was loss to everyone, especially for FIA and Formula 1 as a sport.

Quote from: TheQuickening

All of this shit could have been avoided if there was only a SINGLE tire supplier for all the teams, like it was with Bridgestone before Michelin came onto the scene. Bridgestone has been involved in competitive racing WAY longer than Michelin. They've got tons more experience with Champ Car, the IRL and NASCAR (dunno if they're in rally racing or GP racing). Apparent rumors have actually had the FIA considering going back to only one tire provider within the next few years. Let's hope it's Bridgestone.


Actually Michelin has a lot more experience about Formula 1 than Bridgestone. Michelin's F1 debut was as early as 1971 and they dominated the series in 80's until they left F1. In my opinion Michelin tyres have been better in this season, till Indy GP :)

Le Mans 24hrs race was also won with Michelin tyres this year, and Sebastien Loeb and Valentino Rossi are dominating WRC and Moto GP with Michelin tyres...

Imo having two (or even more) tire-supplier in Formula 1 is only a good thing. The only reason why I would like to have a single tire supplier in F1 is that it would even the gap between teams and make the series more interesting.

Single tire supplier is a part of FIA's plans to lower costs  next season that even the small teams with private funding can fight over championship. If they gonna go with that plan, I don't care whether they're driving with, Michelin or Bridgestone tires. Michelin's chances aren't better with this incindent though :)
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Offline yokotapioka

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« Reply #33 on: June 21, 2005, 04:53:09 PM »
ehm .... i have a question ..

who makes the tires for  the indy series???

Offline ctz

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« Reply #34 on: June 21, 2005, 06:24:46 PM »
Quote from: yokotapioka
ehm .... i have a question ..

who makes the tires for  the indy series???


Firestone, which is a subsidiary of Bridgestone.
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Offline JaisBane

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« Reply #35 on: June 21, 2005, 07:08:49 PM »
Heh, I forgot to address Michelin's racing history in my post.   :evil:  

Anyways, I was completely unsuprised by the FIA's response.  Remember, these are guys that will dq a car for having an airduct that's a millimeter too wide.  They offered to monitor track speeds of michelin teams around turn 13 and penalize them for going too fast, and they really couldn't have done anything more.  If every team was running michelins, they still wouldn't have put in a chicane the day before the race.  That's just how the FIA operates and for Michelin to expect anything else is folly.

Offline yokotapioka

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« Reply #36 on: June 21, 2005, 09:40:17 PM »
Quote from: ctz
Quote from: yokotapioka
ehm .... i have a question ..

who makes the tires for  the indy series???


Firestone, which is a subsidiary of Bridgestone.

 thanks .... by the way ....

maybe  all this "tires and chicane " is a dirty move from ferrari to  take the lead in the championship ...
 or maybe im taking too much beer :jerk:  :halo:  :wink:

Offline TheQuickening

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« Reply #37 on: June 21, 2005, 09:43:37 PM »
Quote from: JaisBane
Woah, Indy does not have a 45-60 degree banking.  It has a 9 degree 12 minutes banking, which is the smallest banking of any major oval track venue in America.[/color]  Daytona International Speedway has the largest banking, and that's only 31 degrees.  

That Michellin paid no attention to American Racing's History and their own history when designing their tires is ridiculous.  It's also ridiculous that the only Michellin supplied teams that did any tire testing on Indy were Felipe Massa and Anthony Davidson.  Michellin's actions were that of pure negligence and their demands and reactions to the FIA were completely unjustified.[/color]  The safety issue is no different from a torrentional downpoor opening and michellin teams retiring due to inferior tires.  The nature of F1 is that if you come, you race no matter the circumstances.[/color] Michellin's, and the teams that followed Michellin's, actions disappoint me terribly.  I had been a Renault and Jarno Trulli supporter this season, but now I'm putting my support behind Ferrari and Rubens Barriccello until they atone for this.[/color] :x

Ok, so I went overboard on how steep the banks at Indy were.  You have to admit, it drove the point home.  Anyway, back to the bashing of Michelin.  To restate the point using another analogy, Michelin did not do their homework, and on the day of the exam, they realilzed there was NO way they were going to pass the test.  They made a request to change a part of the exam, which was totally unreasonable and which the FIA had NO obligation to fulfill.

The little testing that Massa and Davidson did were likely the only thing that brought the problem to Michelin's attention in the first place (assuming that they had had problems with their tires during the testing).  If they had NOT done their testing, and the only sign of trouble was when Ralf spun and crashed, Michelin might have given the tires the green light, and just blamed the crash to driver error or treat it as a freak accident.  You have to wonder then what could have happened during the race.  Michelin had plenty of time to test their tires on a banked track.  They had two weeks while the teams were in Montreal and at Indy.  There's also a track in England that has banked sections of track(can't remember the name off of the top of my head) where car testing is often done.  The opportunities were there, Michelin just didn't take them.

As far as removing your support from Renault, hey, that's your business.  Just remember that the teams who were running Michelins should not be included in the blame.  It's not their fault that they were given inferior tires.  Would an army field commander follow the orders of HQ and send his troops out into a warzone with enemy bullets flying everywhere DESPITE knowing that the M-16 rifles that HIS troops had didn't always work?  Doubt it.  

Quote from: amuse
Quote
The reason for this debacle is clear. Each team is allowed to bring two types of tyre: one an on-the-limit potential race winner, the other a back-up which, although slower, is absolutely reliable. Apparently, none of the Michelin teams brought a back-up to Indianapolis. They subsequently announced they were flying in new tyres from France but then claimed that these too were unsafe.


The Michelin teams didn't even bring a backup set of tires for the race weekend[/color] :(

Quote from: ctz
It seems the teams have to pay the price. They should have had a backup tires and they according to FIA, they didn't inform the race managers about their act beforehand.[/color]


They DID bring a backup set of tires, the second was the "slower, more reliable" tire.  Problem was, the second set of tires was SLOWER.  If the drivers had run with those they wouldn't have been on the same competitive level as the Bridgestone cars. And in the world of F1, being competitive isn't just a big thing, to some it's the only thing.  Besides, the second set of tires would have still been made by Michelin, so despite their being "more reliable" than the first set, there was still the danger of them failing on that banked curve.  They did have two sets of tires, but due to stupid circumstances, they couldn't use either.

Michelin DID inform the race managers, the problem was, they did it too late.  Michelin was caught unprepared to deal with this problem and wanted the race changed so that no one would know that they fucked up.

Quote from: ctz

Actually Michelin has a lot more experience about Formula 1 than Bridgestone. Michelin's F1 debut was as early as 1971 and they dominated the series in 80's until they left F1. In my opinion Michelin tyres have been better in this season, till Indy GP
[/color] :)

Le Mans 24hrs race was also won with Michelin tyres this year, and Sebastien Loeb and Valentino Rossi are dominating WRC and Moto GP with Michelin tyres...


Michelin is superior?  Tell that to Ralf Schumacher.  Poor bastard has crashed his car on THE SAME COURSE, ON THE VERY SAME TURN for two years in a row.  He was driving for a different team each time, with different car designs, etc.  The only thing in common both years, with both crashes were Ralf (who is obviously one of the best and most skilled drivers in the world), and the fact that the cars were using Michelin tires.  To my knowledge, most, if not all the incidents within the past few years of tires failing/coming apart/blowing up have involved Michelin tires.  Ferrari, Jordan, Minardi, and until this season BAR Honda have not had the same troubles with thier Bridgestone tires that Michelin has been having.

Then again the problems in this particular case might be solely due to the banked curve.  Bridgestone (through it's Firestone branch, which supplies Champ Car, IRL, and NASCAR) definitely have more knowledge and experience in dealing with banked curves.  It could very well be that Michelins problems might just be chalked up to inexperience with THIS PARTICULAR type of track.

Quote from: ctz
Imo having two (or even more) tire-supplier in Formula 1 is only a good thing. The only reason why I would like to have a single tire supplier in F1 is that it would even the gap between teams and make the series more interesting.

Single tire supplier is a part of FIA's plans to lower costs  next season that even the small teams with private funding can fight over championship. If they gonna go with that plan, I don't care whether they're driving with, Michelin or Bridgestone tires. Michelin's chances aren't better with this incindent though
[/color]:)


That was the thinking when they brought in Michelin as the second tire supplier.  And look at the problems that have occured with Michelin tires.  Does it add another level of competition between the drivers? Of course it does.  But it also adds a level of risk which I personally believe to be unacceptable.  These drivers are pushing the limits when they're out there during a race.  They HAVE to be able to trust that their equipment will NOT fail.  If I were any of the Michelin teams, right now I'd have serious doubts.

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...Barrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr-be-cuuuuuuuuuuuuue

Offline TheQuickening

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« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2005, 10:18:36 PM »
Just heard on the radio that the FIA is calling some type of conference with all the Michelin teams regarding what happened at Indy.  Questions of penalties, fines, even suspensions.  Personally, I say it's wrong to penalize the teams.  As I said previously, it wasn't their fault that they were given inferior tires.  If anyone's to blame, it's Michelin.  They didn't do the research that they should have done.  By not doing this they didn't build the tire that they should have for the race.

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Offline yokotapioka

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« Reply #39 on: June 21, 2005, 10:33:13 PM »
Quote from: TheQuickening
If anyone's to blame, it's Michelin.  They didn't do the research that they should have done.  By not doing this they didn't build the tire that they should have for the race.


 that's right  but ...    why they just " skipped" the rules and jus  change the "weak " tires ... i mean ..  it's for the emotion a the safety of all ..

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