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Author Topic: The Idoling!!! Episode Discussion Thread *spoiler alert*  (Read 118839 times)

Offline Jenus

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Re: The Idoling!!! Episode Discussion Thread *spoiler alert*
« Reply #140 on: December 08, 2012, 05:55:18 PM »
Well I don't think they are a bunch of money-hungry city slickers, from the way they carry themselves they don't really take their image seriously as some other groups. Probably why a lot of us like watching Idoling!!! because they do things differently. How much money do you think they make a month? I don't think people in a fast-food joint make more money than them.  :lol:
I also like that Idoling is more blunt, but maybe they are just ACTING blunt, as many members also have admitted that their character is just for show. Either way, I think emphasizing that they love money is overdone and unnecessary, it's as bad as openly admitting that they have boyfriends in my eyes because an idol is about fulfilling a dream and not about being greedy.

I think they make very little relative to the amount of work they have to do as compared to working at a fast-food joint, the difference of income between those two jobs probably isn't that different. For example, the understudies at AKB make less than fast-food joint jobs. Only difference is there are a lot of perks being an idol.

As far as Idoling goes, how they get paid is different depending upon which agency they belong, in the case of Box, they get paid on a fixed salary, whereas at LePro they are paid by commission. So one can understand why Maipuru doesn't do a lot of side-gigs because she doesn't make any extra income from that. Kikuchi on the other hand is probably making a lot more money now than two years ago, as one-time appearance on a TV show typically pays anywhere from 30000~50000 yen ($360~$600) for Kikuchi's caliber talent. The rate obviously goes up as demand and popularity of a talent goes up. LePro provides housing and meal for newcomers though so that they wouldn't just starve to death on the streets. I suspect that Horipro and Avex are also commission based, and Ogi, Watanabe, SMA, and Vision Factory are salary based.

Working as an idol really is not about money, while there are a lot of perks, it doesn't mean anything if they don't make it big, there's a lot to lose and a very slim chance of success by investing their whole youth. Rurika and Tonchan going to college says a lot about how insecure they feel towards being an idol, they clearly want a security blanket and it's a smart move. It's too bad that not every member has the brains to have that option.

I think a lot of the girls who get into the idol industry are blinded by the glamour aspect of it and don't realize the harsh reality until they are inside the show. I mean it's very tough for these dreaming teens to assess things in a rational manner, what little girl wouldn't want to be an idol? Parental guidance is very important and while being an idol for a couple of years to fulfill a wish is not a bad thing, expecting them to become an overnight star and having a life-long career is quite another, and I wouldn't be very surprised if no more than ONE of the Idoling members make it as a life-long talent in the show business.

Offline winner

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Re: The Idoling!!! Episode Discussion Thread *spoiler alert*
« Reply #141 on: December 08, 2012, 10:08:38 PM »
And you can also weigh in the actual experience they get while working as an idol, and also what they needed to give up for it. Many might feel it was worth it. This subject gets really heavy. :sweatdrop:
But, yeah. You could see a lot of them getting nudged by Masuno and voted just for lol's and make the episode more entertaining.
I actually half-expected one of the 'Love' girls to breakdown, start crying and say "what the hell are you all thinking!?!" to move them all back over.

I wouldn't be surprised if they planned another episode to sway the group again. Maybe letters from their parents and fans to make whoever cries from it go back to the Love group. Or at least to take out the remaining two. :nervous

Offline idolingkyugo

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Re: The Idoling!!! Episode Discussion Thread *spoiler alert*
« Reply #142 on: December 09, 2012, 10:19:39 AM »
Well I don't think they are a bunch of money-hungry city slickers, from the way they carry themselves they don't really take their image seriously as some other groups. Probably why a lot of us like watching Idoling!!! because they do things differently. How much money do you think they make a month? I don't think people in a fast-food joint make more money than them.  :lol:
I also like that Idoling is more blunt, but maybe they are just ACTING blunt, as many members also have admitted that their character is just for show. Either way, I think emphasizing that they love money is overdone and unnecessary, it's as bad as openly admitting that they have boyfriends in my eyes because an idol is about fulfilling a dream and not about being greedy.

I think they make very little relative to the amount of work they have to do as compared to working at a fast-food joint, the difference of income between those two jobs probably isn't that different. For example, the understudies at AKB make less than fast-food joint jobs. Only difference is there are a lot of perks being an idol.

As far as Idoling goes, how they get paid is different depending upon which agency they belong, in the case of Box, they get paid on a fixed salary, whereas at LePro they are paid by commission. So one can understand why Maipuru doesn't do a lot of side-gigs because she doesn't make any extra income from that. Kikuchi on the other hand is probably making a lot more money now than two years ago, as one-time appearance on a TV show typically pays anywhere from 30000~50000 yen ($360~$600) for Kikuchi's caliber talent. The rate obviously goes up as demand and popularity of a talent goes up. LePro provides housing and meal for newcomers though so that they wouldn't just starve to death on the streets. I suspect that Horipro and Avex are also commission based, and Ogi, Watanabe, SMA, and Vision Factory are salary based.

Working as an idol really is not about money, while there are a lot of perks, it doesn't mean anything if they don't make it big, there's a lot to lose and a very slim chance of success by investing their whole youth. Rurika and Tonchan going to college says a lot about how insecure they feel towards being an idol, they clearly want a security blanket and it's a smart move. It's too bad that not every member has the brains to have that option.

I think a lot of the girls who get into the idol industry are blinded by the glamour aspect of it and don't realize the harsh reality until they are inside the show. I mean it's very tough for these dreaming teens to assess things in a rational manner, what little girl wouldn't want to be an idol? Parental guidance is very important and while being an idol for a couple of years to fulfill a wish is not a bad thing, expecting them to become an overnight star and having a life-long career is quite another, and I wouldn't be very surprised if no more than ONE of the Idoling members make it as a life-long talent in the show business.

Really? So who are the girls who admitted having a character for the show? I have to say #648 sumo episode was over the top but I enjoyed it though.  :lol:

In my country though working in a fast-food joint is only enough for the food on your table for the day.
So that's why Endo doesn't have much side gigs. How much do you think she earns a month? Lucky for the girls who are in generous agencies like Kikuchi.

So do you smell a graduation from those two? (Tonchan/Rurika) Since you know a lot about the entertainment industry in Japan I could sense that you live there?  :)

It's not too unexpected. Young and ambitious girls will choose money over love. Just ask them at what age they want to get married, most will say 30, 35. It may happen sooner, but that's their goal.
First make a good career, love will come later. Even at 30-35, having kids is no problem.

And about their salary, it's just a regular basic salary, enough to cover housing/living/eating expenses. From what I've heard Yazawa say on a recent talk show, the salary only goes up by age, when changing from chuugakusei to koukou to daigakusei/graduating. A good selling DVD or PB won't give them a raise or bonus. (unless the group they are part of ends in 48 and they're top 16, I guess). They may not get a raise or bonus but it will give them more opportunities if they're successful like what Amimi is doing. She started to appear on more TV shows, thus meeting more people in the business (good for future career), being able to wear different clothes all the time (which she details on her blog, she may not get them free at all but she may get a discount next time she buys sth herself because she advertised the brand).

Thanks for the info  :) Well at least they are living in a good condition... I thought they were making a lot through DVDS though... 
« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 05:31:03 PM by Ayabie »

Offline Jenus

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Re: The Idoling!!! Episode Discussion Thread *spoiler alert*
« Reply #143 on: December 09, 2012, 05:38:06 PM »
Really? So who are the girls who admitted having a character for the show? I have to say #648 sumo episode was over the top but I enjoyed it though.  :lol:

In my country though working in a fast-food joint is only enough for the food on your table for the day.
So that's why Endo doesn't have much side gigs. How much do you think she earns a month? Lucky for the girls who are in generous agencies like Kikuchi.

So do you smell a graduation from those two? (Tonchan/Rurika) Since you know a lot about the entertainment industry in Japan I could sense that you live there?  :)
It was shown on episode #929 the 6th annniversay, Tonchan, Rurika, Umeko, Serina, Kikuchi, Miyake, Yurika, Aichan, Kurata, Yuna, Nomoto, Goto, Ojima, Takahashi, Tamagawa, and Kiyoku are the ones who pushed the button that their character is for show. (Some members clearly aren't aware that their true personality is shining through though.)

Considering that Maipuru has been with Box agency for 6 years now, at the least she should be making about the same as a college grad in their 1st year at an elite corporation, but I wouldn't be surprised if she is making a lot less. If Maipuru got a license as a beautician as she had planned before being scouted, and worked as a hair stylist for 6 years, she'd be making more money by now without a doubt, hell she'd make enough money to open up a hair salon of her own.

Tonchan and Rurika eventually will graduate for sure, but I think they both like to stay in show business, Maipuru on the other hand clearly isn't as crazy about being in show business, and considering her age, she's the most likely one to graduate next spring, in fact it's almost a done deal according to a lot of hints Maipuru has dropped in her tweets.

I don't live in Japan now, but I lived there for 5 years.

Offline idolingkyugo

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Re: The Idoling!!! Episode Discussion Thread *spoiler alert*
« Reply #144 on: December 09, 2012, 06:58:49 PM »
Really? So who are the girls who admitted having a character for the show? I have to say #648 sumo episode was over the top but I enjoyed it though.  :lol:

In my country though working in a fast-food joint is only enough for the food on your table for the day.
So that's why Endo doesn't have much side gigs. How much do you think she earns a month? Lucky for the girls who are in generous agencies like Kikuchi.

So do you smell a graduation from those two? (Tonchan/Rurika) Since you know a lot about the entertainment industry in Japan I could sense that you live there?  :)
It was shown on episode #929 the 6th annniversay, Tonchan, Rurika, Umeko, Serina, Kikuchi, Miyake, Yurika, Aichan, Kurata, Yuna, Nomoto, Goto, Ojima, Takahashi, Tamagawa, and Kiyoku are the ones who pushed the button that their character is for show. (Some members clearly aren't aware that their true personality is shining through though.)

Considering that Maipuru has been with Box agency for 6 years now, at the least she should be making about the same as a college grad in their 1st year at an elite corporation, but I wouldn't be surprised if she is making a lot less. If Maipuru got a license as a beautician as she had planned before being scouted, and worked as a hair stylist for 6 years, she'd be making more money by now without a doubt, hell she'd make enough money to open up a hair salon of her own.

Tonchan and Rurika eventually will graduate for sure, but I think they both like to stay in show business, Maipuru on the other hand clearly isn't as crazy about being in show business, and considering her age, she's the most likely one to graduate next spring, in fact it's almost a done deal according to a lot of hints Maipuru has dropped in her tweets.

I don't live in Japan now, but I lived there for 5 years.

I have that episode, it's just that I could not understand it  :lol: After seeing clips outside of the show, some of them though are really alike their characters.
They definitely stuck with the path of an "idol" maybe because it's not as repetitive/boring like a regular job. I bet they have more fun even if it is work. As for Maipuru graduating... I just can't see the group without her, she really does look like the leader of this group for me.  :)
So that's why you get the show even without the subtitles, Japan looks like a good place to live though if not only for the earthquakes.  :panic:

Offline kei_86

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Re: The Idoling!!! Episode Discussion Thread *spoiler alert*
« Reply #145 on: December 11, 2012, 04:23:03 PM »
-- Episode 943 --

oh terrible terrible episode.... 941 and 943 are two episode that clearly shows lack of preparation by the staff. It's so ill-rehearsed that even when there are laughing moments, its for the wrong reason.

The core idea was okay, getting the KY girls to mess and fumble with the task given but the execution was really sloppy. It was dull, so many time wasted on... nothing and random stuff happened out of nowhere. The flow was really slow and the jokes were half baked .Compared to the episodes we're getting lately, 941 and 943 is really bad in comparison.

In addition, it kind of pisses me off that Amimi is sitting with Masuno in front and everyone else including the leader is at the back.

Offline Jenus

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Re: The Idoling!!! Episode Discussion Thread *spoiler alert*
« Reply #146 on: December 11, 2012, 06:32:08 PM »
Kikuchi getting special treatment is nothing new to me, I mean at one time they were doing hundred Amitalk episodes that I'm sure the most forgiving Idoling fan was getting annoyed by it. And when it's not about Kikuchi they still give her a spotlight by being a part of the MC, the blatant Kikuchi promotion by the staff is really discouraging that they would sell themselves out to such a degree but then turn around and act two-faced by doing very odd episodes to suggest that they are daring and unconventional. The reality to me it seems is that the staff has sold out to Kikuchi big time, and the odd episodes are just lame.

Episode 943 was just atrocious, first of all when I saw the 5 members on the set I didn't think that the staff was going all out because Yurika may be mysterious but she's clearly not KY, as well as Karen. The inclusion of those two members have eased the torture of watching this episode somewhat because if they put members like Nomoto and Ojima instead it would've been un-watchable but I guess the staff wasn't trying to be that daring. The use of a dog must've been a joker card just in case the whole thing was getting lame, but one must ask how is putting in a dog itself even justify as a viable solution other than getting cheap laughs.

Am I missing something? Is Idoling that popular in the general public in Japan now that they are now focusing on the less featured members and can afford to ignore the ace members now? Am I suppose to buy into this notion that these KY members all have special gifts instead of just conceding that they can't talk to save their lives and don't have the talent to be entertaining in the slightest? Putting a positive spin on the members' deficiencies is one thing, but manipulating that aspect and applying that into an episode for what benefit I have yet to identify is just too flimsy.

I'm not against the idea of spreading the spotlight evenly among the members, but what the staff is doing is negative promotion of the group. They are rewarding the less talented members by giving them a spotlight, and penalizing the ace members in turn for doing what they were suppose to do which is to stand out with their talent. This upside-down strategy is not going to help the group spread its popularity if the staff thinks showcasing KY Goto and Grotesque Nomoto is going to lead the group to the promised land because those two inferior members not only are not that appealing as an idol, their inferiority is directly causing severe damage to the integrity of the group itself. I am now convinced that Horipro is behind this unwarranted push of the inferior members just like how Watanabe agency has shoved Takahashi and Tamagawa down Idoling fans' throats.

Just drop the act Idoling staff, you are not daring, you are not unconventional, your episode concepts are just lame, you are riding Kikuchi bandwagon so hard that it's nauseating, you are the biggest bunch of sellouts I know. Idoling is not going anywhere by featuring KY members with no talent and shoving the husky voice Kikuchi as MC all the time. Hell, maybe that's the true intention behind the formula so that Kikuchi would stand out by featuring KY members who plain sucks, because we all know Kikuchi is only talented as a heckler and would become irrelevant when the ace members strut their stuff on the stage. Just stick to the popular episodes like Onegai Fansama and Manidoling just so the faithful fans won't turn their back on you. And we get it already, you want to ride Kikuchi's coat-tail all the way to Kouhaku or something, but get real, Kikuchi isn't that popular in the general public, she's just not the greatest ambassador with her cookie-cutter unoriginal baka character. Just how desperate are you? Kikuchi is clearly not MC material and yet you are shoving a mic into Kikuchi's face every chance you can give it to her, handing the keys to the show to Kikuchi is going to be the beginning of the end for Idoling, that much I know for certain.

Offline SuzukiRyo

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Re: The Idoling!!! Episode Discussion Thread *spoiler alert*
« Reply #147 on: December 11, 2012, 06:51:24 PM »
I found it super entertaining though. ROFL
Serina was a blast. XD
Karen's dog was so funny as well.

Offline cicily

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Re: The Idoling!!! Episode Discussion Thread *spoiler alert*
« Reply #148 on: December 11, 2012, 07:09:22 PM »
I found it super entertaining though. ROFL
Serina was a blast. XD
Karen's dog was so funny as well.

I agree. And I disagree with Jenus and kei that #943 was terrible. I thought it was brilliant.

It's quite obvious to me that over the last few months, a lot of the focus of the Idoling!!! episodes are trying to see whether the girls can do improvisational comedy. From the homekoroshi game, to the ending punchline challenge, to that strange episode where everyone danced and had to say something about a member's photo, to today's episode - it's all about getting the girls to think quick on their feet to make people laugh. Not sure whether that is by design, or if it's Masuno's influence (remember, he's a Ippon Grand Prix Oogiri champion, which is all about improvisational comedy), but I love these episodes. While the girls all still have room to improve and they are not professional comedians, they are getting better at their improv skills and their comedic timing is getting better and better.

Although the idol world is so competitive nowadays, it seems that Idoling!!! is pretty well regarded as the queens of variety and talk. If they can also emerge to be idols that can do improvisational comedy, that would be killer. :)

BTW, if anything, Kikuchi is a great MC, but she seems pretty terrible at improv (as witnessed by her uninspiring ending punchline in #942). Doesn't matter, everyone in the group has a role to play.

Offline Jenus

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Re: The Idoling!!! Episode Discussion Thread *spoiler alert*
« Reply #149 on: December 11, 2012, 08:12:13 PM »
It's quite obvious to me that over the last few months, a lot of the focus of the Idoling!!! episodes are trying to see whether the girls can do improvisational comedy. From the homekoroshi game, to the ending punchline challenge, to that strange episode where everyone danced and had to say something about a member's photo, to today's episode - it's all about getting the girls to think quick on their feet to make people laugh. Not sure whether that is by design, or if it's Masuno's influence (remember, he's a Ippon Grand Prix Oogiri champion, which is all about improvisational comedy), but I love these episodes. While the girls all still have room to improve and they are not professional comedians, they are getting better at their improv skills and their comedic timing is getting better and better.

BTW, if anything, Kikuchi is a great MC, but she seems pretty terrible at improv (as witnessed by her uninspiring ending punchline in #942). Doesn't matter, everyone in the group has a role to play.
I'm glad that you've found something enjoyable out of the episode even though what you've described as the intention of the episode wasn't it. Episode 943 is not about honing improv skills, they are showcasing members with very peculiar personalities, thus what the episode was trying to showcase was not their improv skills, but their weird-ness. In my eyes most of them failed miserably because their material isn't funny, and their awkwardness alone wasn't that funny either. And the fact that the dog stole the show.

To be honest, most members are not good at improv, those who are good can also only be described as decent. I must disagree with you though that this improv lessons are helping Idoling as idols, Idoling's strong suit indeed is variety but what they excel at is free-talk in which they can read each others' minds very fast and have good chemistry in having an entertaining conversation that we all recognize and appreciate, the improv thing is a whole another discipline which the members won't be able to utilize their familiarity with each other at all and as you have said it's something that only comedians would train extensively, but last time I've checked Idoling is not a comedian group.

The problem I have with Kikuch is not whether she is the MC, the problem is that she is getting special treatment. The whole inside-joke about the show is staff torturing the members with their sadistic nature, but Kikuchi is treated like a celebrity guest, this hypocritical situation isn't something a fan should take lightly if they stand behind the notion of how the members being treated like second class citizens on the show is an iconic character and symbolism of the show's message itself. I have lost a ton of respect and trust towards the two-faced staff because of it, I really thought they had more balls than to succumb to Kikuchi as they did.

As far as Kikuch's MC skills are concerned, she just doesn't have enough vocabulary to sustain any conversation beyond a superficial level to really intrigue an audience. Just talking a lot and being a gossip girl and blabbering every thought that pops into mind does not equal to being a good MC in my mind. Ever since her radio show has expanded to an hour long, her flaws have become even more pronounced, and as a result the radio show has become very bland, and it has become a chore to listen to it.

I just find it odd that you think honing "comedic timing" is so important in Idoling, when the essence of Idoling's real entertainment value lies in their inept ability in comedic timing, thus laughing at their complete failure of delivery rather than delivering a professional grade comedic skills. So having them train on the comedic skills in turn will take away from their awkwardness of it that brings out the most laugh, making the whole episode counter-productive, and only yielding a very lame content that does not benefit anybody.

Offline AEUGNewtype

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Re: The Idoling!!! Episode Discussion Thread *spoiler alert*
« Reply #150 on: December 11, 2012, 10:10:25 PM »
Damn, I didn't know we had a resident over-analyzer among us Idoling!!! fans, those last few posts were intense. Are you actually still a fan? You seem to be doing a lot of negative talk about them lately. I guess I don't think that much about it, when it comes to the TV show, it just doesn't matter as much. I don't really care to watch them all and don't even bother downloading them all, I look at previews and what people say about them and just get the good ones, and even if a good handful of them aren't very good, the great episodes more than make up for it. I value the music and the minutiae between the members much more than the meta-quality of the show itself. When any show is getting to reach 1000 damn episodes, not every single episode is going to be the best thing you've ever seen. While I do tend to deeply analyze music, I don't find the analyzing of every single TV episode is really that important to the group's output overall.

Offline Jenus

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Re: The Idoling!!! Episode Discussion Thread *spoiler alert*
« Reply #151 on: December 12, 2012, 12:28:25 AM »
Damn, I didn't know we had a resident over-analyzer among us Idoling!!! fans, those last few posts were intense. Are you actually still a fan? You seem to be doing a lot of negative talk about them lately. I guess I don't think that much about it, when it comes to the TV show, it just doesn't matter as much. I don't really care to watch them all and don't even bother downloading them all, I look at previews and what people say about them and just get the good ones, and even if a good handful of them aren't very good, the great episodes more than make up for it. I value the music and the minutiae between the members much more than the meta-quality of the show itself. When any show is getting to reach 1000 damn episodes, not every single episode is going to be the best thing you've ever seen. While I do tend to deeply analyze music, I don't find the analyzing of every single TV episode is really that important to the group's output overall.
I got into Idoling because of their music as well at first, but let's not delude ourselves here, Idoling is only worth anybody's conversation because of their variety aspect, not the music. Idoling's music lately has been an utter disappointment, especially since the staff only started to care about promoting the youth with generic songs and stopped showcasing the skilled singing. I can get such music from any poser idol groups, there's no distinction in Idoling's music anymore.

As a person who cares at least for a few members, I don't think the variety show is that crucial for their success as idols, but Idoling has its roots deep in the variety show and so I would like to see the quality of the show to be a little more consistent than it has been, I don't think that's too much to ask, especially given that Idoling staff thinks they are so radical and unconventional and brilliant. But after seeing the episodes all these years, I can only conclude that the show has far more misses than hits, and I don't think you can afford to sweep that under the rug and pretend that everything is ok as a fan.

What is worse is that they are now doing episodes that are literally damaging the group's image quite a bit, that should bother you as a fan even if you don't care for the variety aspect much. I mean you have questioned my negativity as a fan, but how can I put a positive spin on the staff's special treatment of Kikuchi? I can't. How can I put a positive spin on the less prominent members getting the spotlight for sucking? Does that even make sense to you as a fan? Am I suppose to cheer out loud when that fat AD Umematsu gets more camera time and exposure than the members time after time after time? How do I put a positive spin on that nonsense? Am I really suppose to believe that showcasing a fat male staff member instead of the members themselves is good promotion of an idol group? In what reality or realm is that even remotely a valid argument? It isn't.

There are a lot of theories on why Idoling has never successfully reached mainstream, and when you explore deeper into some of the things I have mentioned about the TV show itself, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the reasons. Maybe you don't care about Idoling's success as a group, that's fine by me, but I'd like to see Idoling achieve something more than pleasing a few hundred wota fan-base because I still believe that they have something more to offer, and it all has to start with improving the quality of the show itself, but unfortunately things are getting even worse.

In the past, I would proudly declare myself as an Idoling faithful, but it's not the case any more because what Idoling used to be and stood for is no longer the same today. Every aspect of the group has declined in quality, the music has become generic and boring, the members are too many and too many untalented ones, and the variety is getting too tedious and trite and focus on all the wrong things. Instead of doing another Amitalk episode, gee I dunno, how about doing a profiling episode for each of the 5th generation members, since they haven't done it yet still? Seriously, some of the staff members must be incredibly incapable and clueless to keep coming up with such asinine episodes instead of doing the obvious, and necessary ones.

So what I'm saying is, there's a reason why I'm critical about the TV show, because it's the only thing that has any chance of getting Idoling anywhere.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 01:02:48 AM by Jenus »

Offline AEUGNewtype

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Re: The Idoling!!! Episode Discussion Thread *spoiler alert*
« Reply #152 on: December 12, 2012, 12:59:38 AM »
No one is "deluding" anything, since everyone has different reasons and different degrees of why they follow any certain idol groups, and we are all different people. I followed Idoling!!! for almost 3 years before I ever even saw their show, and they were already my favorite idol group just based on music and PVs.

In short, I disagree with basically everything you say in the entire post since it is all your opinion, with the exception of maybe I understand that their show may be a big part of what the have to offer to the mainstream, but I kinda feel like its a little late for them to actually "break out" into the mainstream since they've already been around so long, it would be hard for them to all of a sudden be in the public eye and almost no one having experienced their history first-hand. One of the biggest draws of idols is to "watch them grow" as they go along, but Idoling!!! has already been around so long and grown so much that they're at the point where the 1st gen members are going to be gone soon, taking out the whole "supporting the underdog" or "watching them grow" mentality that most idols carry themselves on. You could still technically watch the newer members grow, but I think the appeal generally comes from watching the entire entity (Idoling!!! as a whole) grow from their inception, not just individual girls.

While I feel it may still be possible by some miraculous luck that Idoling!!! actually becomes the new front-runner of idols in Japan after the fall of AKB, it is extremely unlikely, almost to the point where I don't know if its even worth trying. I would love to see them get big and actually make some kind of bigger cultural impact, but on the other hand, when groups get that big, they end up getting over-exposed and usually crash a lot harder in the end.  AKB and H!P have already gotten super popular and over-exposed and H!P already crashed really hard, basically now being at the same level as Idoling!!! where they only have a pretty small amount of devoted fans and I think AKB is heading that way really soon.

Though, even beyond that, I don't actually believe that the same trend is going to continue as strongly, I feel like after AKB crashes, Japan in general might just go through a lull of idols and be really tired of them in general for a few years.  While idols have never really been completely gone from Japanese pop culture, there are periods where they are not much more than an underground or niche interest and don't have much public face or interest.

Idoling also isn't doing any of the "parlor tricks" as I call them, of what AKB does.  They don't go out of their way to do things that shock people, provide fan-service, or cause controversy.  They do things that are outside the typical idol mold or "outside the box" if you will, but they don't have that same level of attention-getting that AKB goes out of their way to have.

It sounds a lot like you're really unhappy that your favorite members aren't getting much exposure on the show and they are varying the focus of the show pretty often, but if it didn't have variety, then how could it still be called a "variety show?" I feel like they are still at the same level of quality as they have been for years and don't feel any kind of "great decline" as you've described.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 01:04:49 AM by AEUGNewtype »

Offline Jenus

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Re: The Idoling!!! Episode Discussion Thread *spoiler alert*
« Reply #153 on: December 12, 2012, 02:13:36 AM »
You may say that how I feel about the status of the group is only my opinion, but the observations that I have based my opinion on is also reality, so my opinion is not baseless, and so far I have yet to see any other hypothesis that stands more true against reality.

I have to disagree on your sentiment that Idoling has been around for too long for new fans to follow, because I myself have followed only since 3rd generation and I still got myself hooked so to speak, and there are plenty of fans who got into it from 4th generation as well as 5th generation, granted the number of fans may not be many, but Idoling never had gigantic amount of fan base to begin with. Knowing that I've been a fan for a while it might seem like the value and presence of 1st generation members are paramount and rightfully so, but to a new fan it might not matter as much because it's kind of hard to care about a member you never had the chance to know about so maybe such fans will think of 3rd generation as their primary generation to relate to. As far as appeal as an entire entity goes, I used to care as a group but not anymore because there are too many members now, and it's a bit weird to consider them in the same boat because they didn't join the group all at the same time. There's already an artificial form of segregation between different generations, and at different stages of growth phase as idols, so it would be unjust to see them under the same light.

Nobody's asking Idoling to equal or surpass AKB here, there's not going to be another AKB for a long time, all I'm saying is Idoling has more potential than just being a niche group. The way things are going though, it's far more likely that individual members will break out before the entire group does, such as how Kikuchi has done, I mean who in their right mind ever thought that Kikuchi would be the first one to break out before it happened? Not many I would say, so anything is possible, and knowing that there are members who are far more talented than Kikuchi in the group, I like my chances.

Yeah, there are negatives to being over-exposed without a doubt, but that's not for the fans to decide, Idoling members want to be more popular, shouldn't you support their determination instead of playing around with what I'd call a loser mentality of being content of not being popular for fearing what being popular may bring? Honestly, I'm not really that concerned about gaining popularity, I just think Idoling has more to offer than being stuck as a niche group.

You mentioned about HP being over-exposed, but would they even be around still if they weren't over exposed in the first place? Your argument that the glass half empty is just as good as glass half full is a totally illogical thinking, that's the equivalent of saying 2nd place is as good as 1st place, no it isn't. Being 2nd place may bring good enough things, but it's still not going to be as good as what being 1st place would bring, the negatives of being 1st still far outweigh the positives of being 2nd place by a million miles.

Your statement that Japan will get tired of idols after AKB is pure speculation, has no basis in reality, and not good enough reason to be content with where Idoling is right now.

I have to disagree about Idoling not adopting AKB tactics, c'mon, Idoling does individual hand-shake events too, sure they don't go all out like AKB does, but just stop pretending that Idoling is innocent in that regard, they are not. I'm not criticizing them about it though, hand-shake has become a standard practice now for any idol groups, I can only curse AKB for it.

Wrong again, my favorite members are getting plenty of spotlight, like I said in the other post, Kaede, Yuna, and Asahi gets to sing a coupling song in a new single, I should be thrilled because they are my favorites, but I'm not because deep inside I know that they are not the best representation of the group's singing talent. My criticism of the group does not stem from such selfish reasons.

Can you really say with a straight face that 4th generation is just as good at variety than 2nd or 3rd are? I really can't, thus there's a significant decline in quality as far as variety goes. 4th generation has been doing absolutely nothing for the first 2 years, and finally in their 3rd year Yuna and Ruka is slowly developing into something decent.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 02:19:24 AM by Jenus »

Offline AEUGNewtype

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Re: The Idoling!!! Episode Discussion Thread *spoiler alert*
« Reply #154 on: December 12, 2012, 03:17:02 AM »
You may say that how I feel about the status of the group is only my opinion, but the observations that I have based my opinion on is also reality, so my opinion is not baseless, and so far I have yet to see any other hypothesis that stands more true against reality.
Not saying your opinion is baseless, but you are claiming it in a very "matter-of-fact" manner and its pretty off-putting.

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Yeah, there are negatives to being over-exposed without a doubt, but that's not for the fans to decide, Idoling members want to be more popular, shouldn't you support their determination instead of playing around with what I'd call a loser mentality of being content of not being popular for fearing what being popular may bring? Honestly, I'm not really that concerned about gaining popularity, I just think Idoling has more to offer than being stuck as a niche group.
Dunno, I'm just kinda fine with the level they're at now, even though it could be cool to see the results of them getting more popular, it seems to have completely ruined the AKB family for me lately and ruined H!P for me years ago.  More exposure means more strict guidelines of how to act, also more public attention which causes more criticism and more potential for scandal, which is something I just really think Idoling!!! doesn't need. I feel as soon as AKB and H!P hit their peak in popularity, the members just started to get less and less interesting and just be more of a "presentable" or generic, clean-cut idol, which is just dreadfully boring, and I just don't want to see the same thing happen to Idoling.  Its more painful to watch people you used to love following turn into mere shadows of their former selves just for the sake of money and popularity. If it happens by natural course, then it just happens, but if it coincides with a breakout amount of popularity, its kinda hard to respect that.

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You mentioned about HP being over-exposed, but would they even be around still if they weren't over exposed in the first place? Your argument that the glass half empty is just as good as glass half full is a totally illogical thinking, that's the equivalent of saying 2nd place is as good as 1st place, no it isn't. Being 2nd place may bring good enough things, but it's still not going to be as good as what being 1st place would bring, the negatives of being 1st still far outweigh the positives of being 2nd place by a million miles.
No one can really say what the fate of H!P would've been if they hadn't gotten massively popular, but if you compare that to Idoling!!!, H!P got ragingly popular just 2 short years after they debuted (and AKB about 4 years after debut) but H!P's popularity was all but gone by about 4 years after they exploded. Idoling is already over 6 years and have been at almost the same level of popularity for most of that time, and have had their own niche throughout, and are still around, despite never getting ragingly pouplar.

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Your statement that Japan will get tired of idols after AKB is pure speculation, has no basis in reality, and not good enough reason to be content with where Idoling is right now.
I didn't claim it to be anything more than speculation just based on my knowledge and previous history with the idol industry, and is my opinion. Whether its a reason to be content or not is also just your opinion.

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I have to disagree about Idoling not adopting AKB tactics, c'mon, Idoling does individual hand-shake events too, sure they don't go all out like AKB does, but just stop pretending that Idoling is innocent in that regard, they are not. I'm not criticizing them about it though, hand-shake has become a standard practice now for any idol groups, I can only curse AKB for it.
I said nothing of the sort about handshake events and whatever, I was merely referring to the risque imagery, really suggestive lyrics, PVs, and song titles, a lot of the things I just see as really tacky and going out of their way to get attention.

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Can you really say with a straight face that 4th generation is just as good at variety than 2nd or 3rd are? I really can't, thus there's a significant decline in quality as far as variety goes. 4th generation has been doing absolutely nothing for the first 2 years, and finally in their 3rd year Yuna and Ruka is slowly developing into something decent.
Again, I don't really pay that much attention to the variety aspect of what they do compared to the other aspects, and I'm honestly fairly entertained by almost all of the girls in some degree, though obviously some to more degrees than others. This isn't a contest between which members are better than others, they all exist as a unit and I'm pretty happy with how they've endured and turned out even with the addition and loss of members.

Offline kei_86

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Re: The Idoling!!! Episode Discussion Thread *spoiler alert*
« Reply #155 on: December 12, 2012, 03:51:45 AM »
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Am I missing something? Is Idoling that popular in the general public in Japan now that they are now focusing on the less featured members and can afford to ignore the ace members now? Am I suppose to buy into this notion that these KY members all have special gifts instead of just conceding that they can't talk to save their lives and don't have the talent to be entertaining in the slightest? Putting a positive spin on the members' deficiencies is one thing, but manipulating that aspect and applying that into an episode for what benefit I have yet to identify is just too flimsy.

I'm not against the idea of spreading the spotlight evenly among the members, but what the staff is doing is negative promotion of the group. They are rewarding the less talented members by giving them a spotlight, and penalizing the ace members in turn for doing what they were suppose to do which is to stand out with their talent. This upside-down strategy is not going to help the group spread its popularity if the staff thinks showcasing KY Goto and Grotesque Nomoto is going to lead the group to the promised land because those two inferior members not only are not that appealing as an idol, their inferiority is directly causing severe damage to the integrity of the group itself. I am now convinced that Horipro is behind this unwarranted push of the inferior members just like how Watanabe agency has shoved Takahashi and Tamagawa down Idoling fans' throats.

Now now, focusing on the ace member of the group would be the same as the Kikuchi treatment wouldn't it? Idoling!!! is fine even with spreading the spotlight to every members that they have or "letting the sucky members suck" in fact that's what made them enjoyable so far. Other idol group TV shows would just focus on the ace so much that the minor members get left out a lot and that is extremely frustrating as a fan especially when you're the kind that would root for the underdog. In fact if Idoling!!! indeed just focus on the ace, I'd have quit watching the show already. 2 years ago we had the explosion of the itadakimasu quiz (too much Kaede/Suu), last year was Sumo (too much asahi/ookawa/chika) and this year Ami Talk (obviously Amimi) while without a doubt all 3 segments are really fun but too much of them just screw up other members. 943, despite its shortcomings of being very bad planned, features members that you just don't see talking often and for that I'm really grateful. Serina basically spoke for the year's worth of sentence in that episode alone and she was the only saving grace of the episode.

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It's quite obvious to me that over the last few months, a lot of the focus of the Idoling!!! episodes are trying to see whether the girls can do improvisational comedy. From the homekoroshi game, to the ending punchline challenge, to that strange episode where everyone danced and had to say something about a member's photo, to today's episode - it's all about getting the girls to think quick on their feet to make people laugh

Like I said, 943 had a good concept but the execution was terrible. Everything was all over the place, its pretty chaotic. Homekoroshi and the dance episode are awesome because it is not as cluttered as this one. While all 3 had the girls to work on some joke on the spot, homekoroshi and the dance had a better tempo and flow since they know when is their turn coming. Now, what I really find it lacking this time around is, since the theme is 1-shot gag / monomane, don't they have a rehearsal or pre-show discussion before hand? These 5 girls are definitely not Idoling!!!'s best member when it comes to gags but a little help before the show would be a lot better. I'm guessing that this is recorded on the same day as 941 (another ill rehearsed show. It could've been a whole lot better if it doesn't look like the girl totally messed up. I guess only Ramu and Kurumin that really spent time practising their presentation that day). Since this is not a dokkiri episode, I was expecting a little bit better structured show overall for 943.

Offline Jenus

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Re: The Idoling!!! Episode Discussion Thread *spoiler alert*
« Reply #156 on: December 12, 2012, 04:34:13 AM »
Dunno, I'm just kinda fine with the level they're at now, even though it could be cool to see the results of them getting more popular, it seems to have completely ruined the AKB family for me lately and ruined H!P for me years ago.  More exposure means more strict guidelines of how to act, also more public attention which causes more criticism and more potential for scandal, which is something I just really think Idoling!!! doesn't need. I feel as soon as AKB and H!P hit their peak in popularity, the members just started to get less and less interesting and just be more of a "presentable" or generic, clean-cut idol, which is just dreadfully boring, and I just don't want to see the same thing happen to Idoling.  Its more painful to watch people you used to love following turn into mere shadows of their former selves just for the sake of money and popularity. If it happens by natural course, then it just happens, but if it coincides with a breakout amount of popularity, its kinda hard to respect that.
But don't you realize that corruption is taking place inside Idoling even without the popularity? Haven't you noticed that Kikuchi is acting like she owns the show? And the staff is sucking her butt real hard? At current state of things, Idoling will only self-destruct. More members need to go out and make it as well so that Kikuchi would be put back into a spot where she belongs, and be under control. Idoling is already at a place where they can't go back to being this anonymous happy go lucky group you dream of. Watanabe agency is shoving Takahashi and Tamagawa down our throats whether we like it or not, Maipuru is slowly being phased out for her age and even with her amazing vocals, she was never given a chance to shine as a solo in any of the Idoling songs for reasons unknown. KY Goto and Grotesque Nomoto are kept pushed to the spotlight they don't deserve by the pressures from Horipro the almighty bully agency. You see, Idoling is already deep inside a corporate agenda cesspool and corrupting away slowly but steadily, so might as well see Idoling have their moment in the sun before all is but lost.

While I know where you are coming from, I think you are also focusing way too much on the negatives. Surely, some members might not be able to resist the temptations of going bad by becoming popular, but if 3, or 4 members can achieve the highest of their goals in show business simultaneously, I'll gladly take that deal in a heartbeat, it's 100 million times better than seeing all of them become nothing and be forgotten forever in my memories as an idol group that had it all but never quite made it.

No one can really say what the fate of H!P would've been if they hadn't gotten massively popular, but if you compare that to Idoling!!!, H!P got ragingly popular just 2 short years after they debuted (and AKB about 4 years after debut) but H!P's popularity was all but gone by about 4 years after they exploded. Idoling is already over 6 years and have been at almost the same level of popularity for most of that time, and have had their own niche throughout, and are still around, despite never getting ragingly pouplar.
It's really hard to fathom that HP would have turned out better if they didn't hit mainstream as you are suggesting. Even in their down-cycle, Morning Musume alone is still selling more CDs than Idoling ever could, what more proof do you need to understand that going mainstream is simply better? Are you really satisfied with Idoling's place in the industry of being anonymous and being nothing for most people in general public? I also like to let you know that Idoling still exist not because they are good enough in popularity, but because of their unique arrangement with FujiTV, and a dedicated man in charge with some corporate muscle, otherwise Idoling would've been gone a while ago. Staying status quo for Idoling is not an option anymore, they have to become more established in the mainstream otherwise FujiTV who is suffering from a bad economy will think twice of keeping Idoling on board.

I didn't claim it to be anything more than speculation just based on my knowledge and previous history with the idol industry, and is my opinion. Whether its a reason to be content or not is also just your opinion.
I was just suggesting that that's what you meant, I never took a position of being content, that's why I'm arguing with you.

I said nothing of the sort about handshake events and whatever, I was merely referring to the risque imagery, really suggestive lyrics, PVs, and song titles, a lot of the things I just see as really tacky and going out of their way to get attention.
But that has been the staple of AKB from the beginning. It was in fact worse before they became mainstream, they were having raffles for the fans at the theater for these exclusive events where you get to bowl with the AKB members, and go on a boat cruise with AKB members. Things have toned down after they went mainstream because there would be too many jealous fans crying foul.

Going back to your point, hasn't Idolinig done a very skimpy PV in tight black shorts and t-shirt just recently? I find it just as tacky and commercialized than their earlier work, let's face it man, Idoling is becoming corrupt no matter what, might as well taste some success.

Again, I don't really pay that much attention to the variety aspect of what they do compared to the other aspects, and I'm honestly fairly entertained by almost all of the girls in some degree, though obviously some to more degrees than others. This isn't a contest between which members are better than others, they all exist as a unit and I'm pretty happy with how they've endured and turned out even with the addition and loss of members.
Well it kind of is a competition, because outside Idoling, they are rivals. So if they can't even manage to stand out in a certain group like Idoling, who is going to have trust in them that they would be successful as a solo act? The lack of quality not only hurts the said member, but those around them in that they also don't grow and develop as much as they should. I think you are fortunate to not pay as much attention to the TV show, because it would be crystal clear as to how much 4th generation has dragged the whole group down in their first 2 years, I have no doubt in my mind that Idoling has totally missed out on breaking out into the mainstream during that 2 year window because of the speed bumps that 4th generation was.

Offline Jenus

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Re: The Idoling!!! Episode Discussion Thread *spoiler alert*
« Reply #157 on: December 12, 2012, 04:59:05 AM »
Quote
Am I missing something? Is Idoling that popular in the general public in Japan now that they are now focusing on the less featured members and can afford to ignore the ace members now? Am I suppose to buy into this notion that these KY members all have special gifts instead of just conceding that they can't talk to save their lives and don't have the talent to be entertaining in the slightest? Putting a positive spin on the members' deficiencies is one thing, but manipulating that aspect and applying that into an episode for what benefit I have yet to identify is just too flimsy.

I'm not against the idea of spreading the spotlight evenly among the members, but what the staff is doing is negative promotion of the group. They are rewarding the less talented members by giving them a spotlight, and penalizing the ace members in turn for doing what they were suppose to do which is to stand out with their talent. This upside-down strategy is not going to help the group spread its popularity if the staff thinks showcasing KY Goto and Grotesque Nomoto is going to lead the group to the promised land because those two inferior members not only are not that appealing as an idol, their inferiority is directly causing severe damage to the integrity of the group itself. I am now convinced that Horipro is behind this unwarranted push of the inferior members just like how Watanabe agency has shoved Takahashi and Tamagawa down Idoling fans' throats.

Now now, focusing on the ace member of the group would be the same as the Kikuchi treatment wouldn't it? Idoling!!! is fine even with spreading the spotlight to every members that they have or "letting the sucky members suck" in fact that's what made them enjoyable so far. Other idol group TV shows would just focus on the ace so much that the minor members get left out a lot and that is extremely frustrating as a fan especially when you're the kind that would root for the underdog. In fact if Idoling!!! indeed just focus on the ace, I'd have quit watching the show already. 2 years ago we had the explosion of the itadakimasu quiz (too much Kaede/Suu), last year was Sumo (too much asahi/ookawa/chika) and this year Ami Talk (obviously Amimi) while without a doubt all 3 segments are really fun but too much of them just screw up other members. 943, despite its shortcomings of being very bad planned, features members that you just don't see talking often and for that I'm really grateful. Serina basically spoke for the year's worth of sentence in that episode alone and she was the only saving grace of the episode.
Since when did Kikuchi become an ace member? Sure, the staff is sucking up to her like crazy, but when has she earned her ace spot INSIDE Idoling? She never did. She got into mainstream with her solo work and is using that as leverage to have her way on Idoling now, that is pure garbage. Before she got into mainstream, she was a heckler who had just as same amount of face time as Sakai did, she was never one of the most popular members within the group to begin with. You must be joking if the amount of exposure Kikuchi got with Amitalk is the same as Itadakimasu quiz and Sumo wrestling episodes, which at best that I could recall merely got 2 to 3 episodes tops and it's not just about Morita and Kaede, nor was it only about Asahi and Okawa. I actually counted the number of Amitalk episodes because I was so fed up with it but wanted to make sure it wasn't just my imagination, they had TWELVE Amitalk episodes, TWELVE, 12!!!!!!! All that to some middle of the popularity member who never proved her ace-worthiness inside the group. You should lose interest in the group if all you care about is inferior members getting the spotlight over ace members, that just doesn't register as a logical nor rational reasoning.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 05:47:11 AM by Jenus »

Offline strtl

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Re: The Idoling!!! Episode Discussion Thread *spoiler alert*
« Reply #158 on: December 12, 2012, 06:20:24 AM »
While I know where you are coming from, I think you are also focusing way too much on the negatives.

With the greatest respect, this could equally sum up my feelings while reading your own posts. :) :nervous

they had TWELVE Amitalk episodes, TWELVE, 12!!!!!!!

I think the reason there are so many Amitalk episodes is partly because they provide a good framework for members to talk about themselves. Kikuchi may stand in a prominent position and have her name in the show title, but it's other members who get the most screen time on those episodes. Kikuchi merely acts as an intermediate between Masuno and the other members. For instance, in #828 It's Sakacchi and Umeko who star in the first segment because of their bento-stealing antics and Asahi in the last part because of her all-round niceness to other members. I don't think Kikuchi ever tries to steal the limelight. At least not on the Amitalk shows.



Offline Jenus

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Re: The Idoling!!! Episode Discussion Thread *spoiler alert*
« Reply #159 on: December 12, 2012, 06:51:42 AM »
With the greatest respect, this could equally sum up my feelings while reading your own posts. :) :nervous
Point taken, but ultimately my criticism is a more accurate indicator of Idoling's state of things, otherwise they wouldn't be anonymous and unknown in the mainstream still. I at least have a positive mindset that Idoling has more to offer instead of settling for what they are as is.

I think the reason there are so many Amitalk episodes is partly because they provide a good framework for members to talk about themselves. Kikuchi may stand in a prominent position and have her name in the show title, but it's other members who get the most screen time on those episodes. Kikuchi merely acts as an intermediate between Masuno and the other members. For instance, in #828 It's Sakacchi and Umeko who star in the first segment because of their bento-stealing antics and Asahi in the last part because of her all-round niceness to other members. I don't think Kikuchi ever tries to steal the limelight. At least not on the Amitalk shows.
That's a nice spin on it to deflect Kikuchi's power-play on the show, but it's still quite evident that Kikuchi gets the spotlight a fair amount by being the MC regardless, and whether people think Kikuchi is an ace member or not, 12 episodes in her name is FREAKING TOO MUCH any way you look at it. Plus Kikuchi is an atrocious MC, even the comments she makes as an MC as if she's superior and talking down to the other members was very unpleasant to watch. Putting Kikuchi on a different plateau as the staff has done is not going to be good for the balance of the show, this is much clear.

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