JPHiP Forum

The PIEHOLE => H!P Crapola => Topic started by: daigong on April 26, 2005, 11:23:52 PM

Title: Rivalry
Post by: daigong on April 26, 2005, 11:23:52 PM
From Morning Musume x Tsunku 2, Rika mentions how thing have changed esp. the sense of rivalry is non existent in today's Morning Musume

Quote from: Fenrir13

Rika: When I entered Morning Musume, everybody had rival feelings flaring up. That’s why I said, it’s not the relationship was bad, but it was these rival feelings burning that we were greatly feeling. Even when we were all eating dinner, those feelings will still flow.

...

The most different Morning Musume of now hasn’t fully sensed the “friend” feeling. The senior members have a complete sense of being very professional. We also had that feeling of being nervous from the very beginning. If I think about that, the atmosphere right now has completely changed. Therefore, in a better meaning, if everybody has a little more rivalry feeling, I think Morning Musume will power up even more.


What do you think? I think Rika is on the money. There isn't that competitive edge in the Morning Musume of now, no one is trying to out hustle the other. Everyone is just content in going through the motions, acting together in harmony. In the first Morning Musume x Tsunku , their manager told 4th Generation that they would have to catch up or even surpass the senior members. From what tama-chan has told me, other senior members have expressed the same feeling as well. :shock:
Title: Rivalry
Post by: Redturtle on April 27, 2005, 12:14:38 AM
From the translation I read from mm-bbs by Mink, Miki said exactly the same thing (now I really want to read Yossi's part.... why isn't my book shipping?!?!?). Gorokkies (with exception of Takahashi, and maybe Tanaka) simply don't have the urge to compete with their senpais. I think the overall passive personalities of 5th gen made such rivalry atmosphere impossible to continue. Of coz I'm generalizing and to hell do I know what UFW had in mind, but this is the impression they gave to the general audience through talks, concerts, articles and whatnots.

From other reports I've read, the older members basically owned the concerts, especially MC parts. They are also the ones who heated up the atmosphere. Damn, Gorokkies need to speak up. 6th gen is doing better than 5th in this respect though.... only if they could be more aggressive. I really like how Sayu claims nobody's cuter than her. She's got some attitude there. :lol:
Title: Rivalry
Post by: Fenrir on April 27, 2005, 02:53:34 AM
I think a rivalry in this sense isnt about hating each other or anything. I think it`s more about trying to outperform each other. By having a sense of rivalry, it makes them try harder and better: singing, dancing, and being funny/interesting on tv shows, thus, their overall quality when performing songs will be better. However, this doesn`t make them hate each other or anything and that they are still friends. "Rivalry" can also mean, not only outdoing each other, but also helping each other too, like pointing out what they are doing wrong and what not. I think that is what Rika and the other older members are trying to say. Having a sense of rival feeling can help put a flame underneath Morning Musume, to "power them up" so to speak, cuz I think what Rika is saying is that the flame right now is kinda dull and low.
Title: Rivalry
Post by: Asmodai on April 27, 2005, 05:04:02 AM
I think you can sort of tell who's got the rivalry thing going. Miki, Yossie, Miki and Takitty appear on screen twice as much as the others, hustle for solo lines, etc.

One thing the recent graduations will do is hopefully force the others to step up a bit.
Title: Rivalry
Post by: THUNDERDUCK on April 27, 2005, 05:16:38 AM
It's the Japanese education program kicking in-  Performance and competition are necessary to better oneself.  Sayumin is right, no one in 6th generation is cuter than her. :twisted:
Title: Rivalry
Post by: Masa on April 27, 2005, 06:21:10 AM
Quote from: Miki Fujimoto
I mean it in a good way when I say that I hope we don't stay as a group that isn't all "friendly-friendly." After all, Morning Musume originally began as a "a unit with a rivalry sense" and has continued that way. We're good friends normally, but when it's time to work, we're not friends in a good way... I think that's a good thing. It's not that we don't get along, but it's not like we're all "hey~ <3" and clingy like that. I think it would be good if we each raised our rival sense a bit more. And I think it would be good if we didn't just limit this to the members, but also have this sense towards other artists.

Pretty much all 5th and 6th gen members really to step up. It kinda seems like most of the girls in the group are happy with their current positions. If you watch the concerts you can see certain members always trying to outperform others while some girls just are there. And the same thing happens in tv-shows. Some members just sit there all quiet. Makoto is pretty much the only Gorokkie who have gotten some shine in Utaban.  I guess that the biggest problem is that the younger members lack either charisma, looks or singing skills. Especially compared to other generations. If the girls don't step up, MM will soon be a 2 girl(Miki & Takahashi) show.
Title: Rivalry
Post by: daigong on April 27, 2005, 08:42:34 AM
^ word. Reina is about the only one who actually has that edge. I think I read somewhere she said Gocchin was her rival based on how much she looked up to her.

It was kinda strange if one person mentioned it, but when you got Rika, Miki, possibly Yossi and Mari speaking about the same topic. Really makes you wonder.

I agree with Fenrir13, being in the same group - there's always the common goal of putting out a good product. having a rival doesn't mean you gotta beat someone down but to set a standard for yourself. to have a goal. Yossi and Rika always clamied to be each others rivals. Rika even claimed that her mother was her rival!! something like her mom said she was prettier at her age! haha. :D

Having rivals is all about attitude. The "I can't lose, never give up" mentality.
Title: Rivalry
Post by: Redturtle on April 27, 2005, 10:00:46 AM
I won't say Gorokkies lack appearances and voices though, coz frankly none of the 4th gen (exception maybe Aibon) could sing back in 2000 and 6th gen's got the best looks to start off with. It's all about personality. I read the 1-3 gen objected to the fact that Tsunku's adding 2 brats into the group, but 2 months after they didn't even treat them as new members anymore. The older gen members were quick to absorb into the group and worked their ass off to entertain the audience. A few months ago I still treated 5th as new members. Had it not been the series of graduations I probably still would.
Title: Rivalry
Post by: shirenuファクトリー on April 27, 2005, 10:15:04 AM
Quote from: Son Goku

I remember Makoto catching a lot of heat from fans for "speaking up" back when she first joined...

"Speaking up"? You mean she was too loud or what? :o
Title: Rivalry
Post by: elgie on April 27, 2005, 01:51:55 PM
Quote from: shirenu
Quote from: Son Goku

I remember Makoto catching a lot of heat from fans for "speaking up" back when she first joined...

"Speaking up"? You mean she was too loud or what? :o


When she came in the group, Makoto said she was aiming at being a solo artist. Coming from a new member, some fans found these words pretentious.
Title: Rivalry
Post by: shirenuファクトリー on April 27, 2005, 01:57:55 PM
Quote from: elgie

When she came in the group, Makoto said she was aiming at being a solo artist. Coming from a new member, some fans found these words pretentious.

Oh...

...That's weird. :o
Title: Rivalry
Post by: elgie on April 27, 2005, 03:12:51 PM
I remember I almost hated her because of her words. Now that she's pushed in the back, though, I feel very bad, as if we were responsible :(
Title: Rivalry
Post by: shirenuファクトリー on April 27, 2005, 05:37:27 PM
But... What's wrong with aiming to be a solo artist? Why exactly did people get angry about it? I don't think I understand... Say, if one of the 7th gen audition girls said they aimed to be a solo artist, well, I'd laugh because they suck at singing, but if they had talent (like Mako seemed to have) why get pissed off about it? :o
Title: Rivalry
Post by: bot on April 27, 2005, 05:44:38 PM
Quote from: elgie

When she came in the group, Makoto said she was aiming at being a solo artist. Coming from a new member, some fans found these words pretentious.


well they should be pleased now, then.

Rika really needs to redistribute her inheritance.

Sayumi gets all the cutesyness, and Ogawa is absolutely trampled on. recurrently rude 2ch posts, utaban sumo jokes, even the face reading 'expert' on the latest utaban was unkind...
Title: Rivalry
Post by: bot on April 27, 2005, 06:04:07 PM
my mistake, it was on the latest hello morning that the face reading guy said that hitomi had the most clear features of all the members, (eh? what about yaguchi or goto?)implying the opposite was true of ogawa, and that ogawa had a flat face and a rather 'full' face... stuff like that.

I'm sure she is affected... how can one not be... also, yossi was really nice to her after his comments when she usually acts totally insulted to be ogawa's 'partner'... so I'm sure it does cut to some degree. the worst thing is that she is one of the prettier members...  only with a fatally 'full face'
Title: Rivalry
Post by: TheQuickening on April 27, 2005, 07:00:24 PM
Quote from: Son Goku

Quote from: bot

Sayumi gets all the cutesyness, and Ogawa is absolutely trampled on. recurrently rude 2ch posts, utaban sumo jokes, even the face reading 'expert' on the latest utaban was unkind...


What was said on the latest Utaban?  Not surprising, because people have been pretty much calling her the new Kei Yasuda in regards to Utaban, so maybe it'll be good for her on camera in the long run.  I just hope she's not affected by the teasing too much when the cameras go OFF. :(  

Quote from: shirenu
But... What's wrong with aiming to be a solo artist? Why exactly did people get angry about it? I don't think I understand... Say, if one of the 7th gen audition girls said they aimed to be a solo artist, well, I'd laugh because they suck at singing, but if they had talent (like Mako seemed to have) why get pissed off about it? :o

For starters, the 5th gen was arguably the MOST HATED gen to ever enter Morning Musume.  They had every right to be passive in their earlier days, especially Risa (and Kray can tell you this), who's pictures were BURNED at concerts.  Fans were harsh on the girls, and it took a while for most of the loyal fans to warm to them.

In the case of Mako though (and someone feel free to correct me), I think that people took her comment as, "you just joined the top idol group in Japan and NOW you want to go solo?  Who the HELL do you think you are?"  Yeah, it's ridiculous, but that struck me as the line of thinking after Mako made that comment.  As I also mentioned about Takahashi and Mako's relationship though, I think people still hold grudges towards Mako for their "rivalry".  That's why I'm weary of the word these days, along with my belief that a rivalry won't add that much more to the group except for some nice gossip from bubka.

"Rivalries" are what pushes people to improve themselves, without it, without the girls pushing one another in that fashion, the group would become stagnant, which is what some people say is happening now. I don't see anything wrong with having goals and being ambitious.  Remember Maki did the same thing in that she publicly stated/predicted that one day she'd release songs as a solo artist.  In a lot of Asian cultures having ambition is fine, but it's NOT good if you publicly state them.  So in Mako's case people were just pissed at the fact that she had made this statement so soon after joining MM.  Fans probably thought as saw her as the really overly-ambitious one who'd walk all over the others to acheive her goal at any cost.

It really sux how people dissed 5th gen like that.  Especially Risa.  She was the youngest member of the group, and Tsunku picked her for a reason, he saw something in her that would be good for the group.  If the fans can't see that/disagree with the decision, they should be burning pics of Tsunku, not Risa.  Publicly picking on a young girl like that?  Definitely NOT cool.  Guys like that give fans a bad name.   :x  :x  :x
Title: Rivalry
Post by: Masa on April 02, 2006, 07:01:56 PM
*bumps*

What's the situation in 2006?
Title: Rivalry
Post by: linlin on April 03, 2006, 05:17:01 AM
they still lack that rivalry feeling. they dont compete with each other, too content with where they are.
Title: Rivalry
Post by: aimaime on April 03, 2006, 05:43:10 AM
Quote from: shirenu
But... What's wrong with aiming to be a solo artist? Why exactly did people get angry about it? I don't think I understand... Say, if one of the 7th gen audition girls said they aimed to be a solo artist, well, I'd laugh because they suck at singing, but if they had talent (like Mako seemed to have) why get pissed off about it? :o


maybe it has something to do with the japanese culture where you're supposed be humble and not stand out? i dont know. maybe she was still new at the time and some fans saw it as a sign of pretentiousness. who knows.

but i think there are more shy members in the current morning musume than the previous gererations. even if they try to go out there and stand out, they still can't be as outrageous as say mari or tsuji because it's not in their nature.

i don't really mind because i think just because you're an idol doesn't mean you have to be hyperactive and good at EVERYTHING. but i think a lot of fans think this is boring and expect them to be as crazy as the previous gens. i mean if you look at women singers outside of H!P some of them are hyper while others have a cool, quiet image. ok i'll stop rambling..
Title: Rivalry
Post by: ayou099 on April 03, 2006, 10:25:22 PM
In 2006:

6th Gen has improved alot, a long way from 2004 anyway. I dont see Koharu as the rivalry type though...... who knows, she could be plotting while putting on that ignorant smile that she has 100% of the time.
Title: Rivalry
Post by: StreakInTheSky on April 04, 2006, 05:32:12 AM
Koharu is pure evil :lol:
Title: Rivalry
Post by: tenkei on April 04, 2006, 06:38:59 AM
Quote from: StreakInTheSky
Koharu is pure evil :lol:


are finally coming around sits? o_o
Title: Rivalry
Post by: jimmy on April 04, 2006, 09:38:06 PM
Quote from: ayou099
In 2006:

6th Gen has improved alot, a long way from 2004 anyway. I dont see Koharu as the rivalry type though...... who knows, she could be plotting while putting on that ignorant smile that she has 100% of the time.


None of the members would want to have a rivalry with her though because she's a couple years younger than all of them. It'd be embarrassing. Most likely rivalry for her would be with one of the Berryz or Cute girls, who are nearer her age.
Title: Rivalry
Post by: ayou099 on April 04, 2006, 09:54:16 PM
Quote
None of the members would want to have a rivalry with her though because she's a couple years younger than all of them. It'd be embarrassing.


I meant Koharu having one way rivalries with older members BUT

Look at her, shes a seiyuu and she has a PB already ^^
Title: Rivalry
Post by: StreakInTheSky on April 05, 2006, 05:54:46 AM
Quote from: tenkei
Quote from: StreakInTheSky
Koharu is pure evil :lol:


are finally coming around sits? o_o


no.


BTW, rivalry doesn't always mean that you're going side by side against the other person. As the younger members advance it encourages the older members to work harder not to be out done by their lowers, and it works the other way like as the older members advance the younger members don't want to be left behind.
Title: Rivalry
Post by: linlin on April 08, 2006, 10:00:36 AM
for me, koharu isnt a rivalry type. she does get to do more and seem like she's really advancing the senpais .. but it's more like she was given the chance easily. she was what Tsunku called miracle and it's like he's proving his own statement so he give her more chance. not like she's working for it.

i'm not saying she dont deserve those chances or who deserve them more than her. but i dont think it's "rivalry" that got her what she has now.

it's like they are sisters in the group right now. they dont compete with each other. they help each other. and maybe it's the age difference? could it be that koharu and eri wont compete with Yossi and Miki because they are much older and more experienced in they group? i mean the first-fouth gen were around the same age, except yuko.
Title: Rivalry
Post by: Eques2 on April 08, 2006, 11:38:39 AM
Quote from: linlin
and maybe it's the age difference? could it be that koharu and eri wont compete with Yossi and Miki because they are much older and more experienced in they group? i mean the first-fouth gen were around the same age, except yuko.


In Koharu's case I think the difference in age (maturity) and experience is too big for her to be considered a "threat" to any of her sempai. At this point she's still mostly just learning by imitating, as she should.

As for Miki, I feel she's always (well, after some period of adjustment into the group) had a position that's hard to challenge, even when older members where still in MM, because of her solo career. Even then, differences in age/years of experience in MM were somewhat offset by a difference in achievements, thereby making it hard to establish a clear sempai/kohai relationship. At least, that's the impression I got.
Title: Rivalry
Post by: maximum23 on April 08, 2006, 08:45:43 PM
They need a team meeting....leader is supposed to call it....

To be honest, I think the whole MM group consists of a bunch of losers.  It's as if when someone makes fun of 'em, they just go, "uh, okay *smiles*."
I think MM needs a complete overhaul.  The 7th gen was a waste.
Title: Rivalry
Post by: shirenuファクトリー on December 14, 2006, 11:07:17 AM
*BUMP*

Will Aika affect the current state of Momusu at all?! :lol: DUNDUNDUNDUND
Title: Rivalry
Post by: huggumwuggums on December 14, 2006, 11:14:09 AM
I doubt it XD
Title: Rivalry
Post by: tamatron on December 14, 2006, 11:32:31 AM
I doubt anyone would see Mitsui as her rival. :p Having another generation of 1 isn't helping this rival thing, either. At least with like 3 members in 1 gen, there could be some rivalry going on.

MM is so damn passive now. :/
Title: Rivalry
Post by: ferrar1 on December 14, 2006, 12:23:01 PM
^ Kinda agree. When you have more than 1 within the same gen, it helps to bring out the passion to win which was lacking in 7th gen and now 8th gen. Comparing is tough i know, but it makes you want to compete.

OT: btw whats up with the sudden increase in old threads :D
Title: Rivalry
Post by: shirenuファクトリー on December 14, 2006, 05:07:34 PM
Shhhh I'm trying to push the bashing thread back to where it belongs >_> Annoys me when I come back and every time THAT'S the latest thread people replied to!!! It was never this popular before and it scares me :(
Title: Rivalry
Post by: RionZ on December 14, 2006, 05:07:45 PM
yea, I think the rivalry (lack of one) thing is going on even more so today...

oh yea...lol...who keeps bumping old threads lol?
Title: Rivalry
Post by: zoolander on December 14, 2006, 08:49:18 PM
The later generations definitely seem like there more interested in not upsetting everyone than getting to the top.

Maybe there is some stuff that goes on behind the scenes and we just don't see it, but I just couldn't imagine anything like that first shuffle group ASAYAN. Seemed like everyone had ambitions of being the lead for their group, even if they realistically didn't have a shot.
Title: Re: Rivalry
Post by: shirenuファクトリー on May 02, 2015, 06:44:53 PM
Uhuumm...

Now that Morning Musume has been back on an upward trend...

Is it fair to say it was indeed the lack of promotion from the agency (and other poor management decisions) that caused MM's popularity to drop, instead of the lack of rivalry?

Does current MM have rivalry?

I still don't get the sense they'd have the same kind of rivalry that the classic MM did, but it still feels like they're working hard. Could it be that they learned from Sayu who was doing it for the group, rather than doing it for herself?

Honest questions...
Title: Re: Rivalry
Post by: shadowstar on May 02, 2015, 07:44:01 PM
^ I agree on the poor promotion part. I think that was the main factor.

As for rivalry, wouldn't AKB be their biggest rival? Just a guess. Haven't really kept up to date with the idol world.
Title: Re: Rivalry
Post by: JFC on May 02, 2015, 11:54:15 PM
There's little to no doubt about it, the lack of/poor promotion was the main factor in their drop in popularity and overall sales of their singles and albums. Now granted, MM and the other H!P groups were still clearly a pretty strong draw at concerts, however, compared to other artists and other idols groups, their sales figures were sad.

One cannot help but wonder how much MORE they could have done and how much MORE success MM could have had during that time (both commercially/financially as well as artistically) had their promotion been able to keep up with the levels of promotion that other idol groups (e.g. the *48 conglomerate, Momoclo, E-girls, BABYMETAL, etc.) were getting.

Bottom line, if you want to be profitable/successful in the music business you cannot act like how TPTB at Up-Front were acting back during MM's Platinum Era. They ignored/denied basic economics and the basic, fundamental premise of one of the biggest factors of what makes musical artists/groups commercially successful; namely, more media exposure leads to more people finding out and potentially becoming fans of the group. The more people you have becoming fans of the group, the more singles/albums/merchandise you sell, which means you're making more money. When you look at the popular idols and idol groups, be it the current ones or ones from the past, what's the one thing that they all have in common?

Their music SELLS. It sells because they're popular, and they in turn are popular because it sells.

The more it sells, the more money you make.

The more money you make = WINNING.

People will not buy your/your group's product if you are not doing a good enough job of:
a) informing the masses that it's actually out there, and
b) making it appealing enough that people decide that they want to buy it.


Make good songs/singles/albums, but more importantly, TELL people about them, show them that it's good and why it's good. Give them a reason to WANT to buy it. Give them a reason to like/love/become fans of your group other than just it's name.

[/mini rant]
Title: Re: Rivalry
Post by: tru_harmony on May 04, 2015, 02:39:06 PM
I actually sense some more internal rivalry in the group now for the center position than in the platinum era.

I think the rivalry was more real among 1st to 3rd gen. I think the 1st gen members saw the 2nd gen members as parasites who would leech off their hard work. The addition of Goto Maki who was packaged as an ace was the peak of that tension, I think. 4th gen was the neutralizer. I feel like, by then, the addition of new members had become commonplace in the group that the 1st gen members were kind of resigned to their level of exposure. Then the rivalry sense just went downhill from there.

I think rivalry doesn't really affect the marketing and sales aspect of the production. Japanese media is over-saturated with young women/girls that the general public cannot care for the individual members the same way they cared about the golden era members. In this context, any nuance as regards their internal relations is only noticeable and consequential to loyal hardcore fans.

I don't think AKB is MM's rival. MM didn't lose to them. MM lost to time and trends. We have to be honest that MM had been losing steam since after Koi No Dance Site. AKB and MM were playing different fields although primarily catering to mostly the same market.
Title: Re: Rivalry
Post by: scorn on May 04, 2015, 04:06:44 PM
Remember the first ever audition was to find a solo vocalist, so that mentality stuck even when Tsunku went back on his word & made MM the group instead i.e. the 1st gen girls are "I alone should be sole representative of H!P's MM, what are these others doing alongside me"? Then as tru_harmony said, the 2nd gen & Goto Maki just made the rivalry more intensely cutthroat.

Also as tru_harmony said, MM became the Netscape Navigator of the J-idol industry. That market simply became the pie shared by newer, different players. People forget that even back then MM stole that market share from SPEED and MAX, so the whole thing's just cyclical.
Title: Re: Rivalry
Post by: initial on May 07, 2015, 04:38:01 PM
(http://www.hello-online.org/img/Ishida%20Ayumi,%20Oda%20Sakura-547891.jpg)
Title: Re: Rivalry
Post by: tru_harmony on May 07, 2015, 08:34:31 PM
I actually sense some more internal rivalry in the group now for the center position than in the platinum era.

I think the center position matters more now than it did when there was Ai and Reina. Them being in the center seemed like the natural scheme of things.

But now, I feel  something different in the group when Riho was a bit off-center in the most recent single. I think the other members have become more confident and really want to challenge Riho for that spot.

Management is clearly stirring things up in expanding the center stage to accommodate a few more people than what we're used to (1~2)

It could be that because Sayu has left that there isn't that element of that person who can stand out from anywhere. Sayu didn't need to be in the center because regardless of the fact that she isn't the most skilled among them in singing or dancing and she made her own space and stood out.

Now everyone is pretty much in the same place, just a little more skilled in some aspect compared to the others but all the factors kind of even out. I think rivalry is possible only in situations like this. I'd say rivalry was nearly impossible when Ai Takahashi was around because there's no competing with her in terms of singing and dancing skills and during Platinum Era, that was all MM could show non-hardcore fans.
Title: Re: Rivalry
Post by: scorn on May 07, 2015, 09:40:10 PM
But will this new 'emerging rivalry' breed the resentment within the group we witnessed in pre-4th-generation MM?

Sure it can spur the girls into wanting to become as skilled as Riho, Oda, Mizuki, Ayumi; but will they also develop the "I alone should be H!P's sole MoMusume, at least like how Airi dominated C-ute's SHOCK" mentality?

(Actually what I see is management moving MM away from the "Lead vocals #1 & Lead vocals #2 feat. backup dancers" of the past, where people like Junjun went through her entire stint barely singing one note)
Title: Re: Rivalry
Post by: tru_harmony on May 08, 2015, 02:18:10 PM
I think for 9th to 11th gen, there wouldn't be resentment, just some tension. I think it's just me but Riho's vibe when she's not in the center kinda shows how she's not the happiest to share that post. I don't think she would blame the others for it but I think it would push her even harder because it's beginning to show that she's in the center not necessarily because of her talent but because management put her there. Management could very easily put anyone else there regardless of skill or appeal.

I think putting Riho in the center was to move Morning Musume towards an image of high-dancing skills (compared to other all-girl groups). Now that MM has gotten the formation dance as their shtick, it's time for management to move toward some other aspect that they could sell the group on. Sakura is put in the center with Riho to move the group towards a more holistically talented group.

Oh look they don't just dance very well, they can sing well WHILE dancing!

Getting more people at the "center" diffuses the attention to a couple more people to move away from the Ai/Reina/whoeveriscenter is/are the center of the universe  phase of MM.

I imagine it would more likely be 9-11th gen vs 12-nth gen because 9-11th gen got MM the 5 #1 1st week sales streak. In this cycle, the Sayu-led colorful era was the era that "worked its butt off to get MM back to Music Station and all that" the same way 1st gen sold 50,000 copies of their record. I can easily imagine them seeing the succeeding gens to be usurpers and leeches to their success in reviving and revitalizing the group.

But they seem to love the group enough to not really be resentful of anyone who gets in.