[Discuss] Oshimen and You

[maliciel]

People seem to be confused about the concept of 'oshimen', so I wrote a short thing about what I think about it.

Of Mice and Oshimen

A few days after the last AKB48 concert, we were greeted by Hirajima Natsumi's entry about her visit to Singapore. In it, she recounted how someone in the shop (presumably one of the shopkeepers) told her that she was her 2nd favourite. However, this was not the real issue. The real problem (she didn't say it, and it probably wasn't that big a deal) was that the person involved said 'oshimen' instead. Now we can all speculate on how big the actual molehill we're making the mountain out of is, but that is a digression.
 
Part of the problem is the disparity in how the English-speaking world and the Japanese use the term. To go a little into it, the term 推しメン is a portmanteau of 推している and メンバー. What '推しているメンバー' member literally means is, the member (you are) supporting/pushing. Now if you've ever watched any TV programs that features AKB48 and any of their fans, the inevitable '推しメンは誰？' will come up. Of course, you will never see a fan rattle off his rankings, and he'll just answer with one girl's name. There is no such thing as a '2nd oshimen' even if the literal meaning of the word hints at it. This does not translate well into English. 'Oshimen' is used more like '#1 favourite' instead of the 'favourite' that English-speakers seems to think it means.
 
What this means is the (AKB48) girls are going to expect you to be in line with their knowledge of what it means. 'Oshimen' carries a certain meaning and connotation that is lost on English-speakers (hereby referred to as foreigners a la Starcraft). Of course, this does not signify a flaw in the foreigners' thinking (at least in my opinion), there's just nothing to adequately express the concept in a word. Other related terms, like DD or MD are just the meta-references that fans themselves use to refer to what they think of their own fandom.
 
Was it 'wrong' for Shoujo A to say '2nd oshimen' to Nacchan? Maybe. But should everyone calm the fuck down about it? Yes. Basing your own fandom off terms that people make and shaping the whole thing based on something you have no clear idea about is not the best idea ever, and I wish people would stop and think about it for a second.
 
Just remember this: If you're in a pinch, just use 'daisuki', no one got hurt saying that.

[Anariel]

You take it very serious. They are show business employees. They get paid. The customer is always right. So I can call them the way I want unless it doesn't cross the line. And see on japanese ppl, they adopted a lot of english words and use it on their own, some of words with different sense.

[maliciel]

Eh, of course you could.

But if you had more than the EQ of a bat you probably wouldn't want to sadden a girl by saying something stupid, which is what I'm trying to say.

[Anariel]

Man, it's not stupid. It's completely acceptable for overseas fans and even for japanese non-wota fans. They mustn't know all the petty details of AKB fandom. Girls should be glad that they have someones who come to them for handshakes even though they make something stupid like saying not proper things or even misspell their names.

[mode107]

I've never thought too much into it, but I do think that it does sounds a bit off when one says that he/she has a second oshimen.

....What's Kami-Oshi?

[maliciel]

Man, it's not stupid. It's completely acceptable for overseas fans and even for japanese non-wota fans. They mustn't know all the petty details of AKB fandom. Girls should be glad that they have someones who come to them for handshakes even though they make something stupid like saying not proper things or even misspell their names.

Sorry if you have knowledge enough to say 'you are my oshimen' then you better know the 'petty details'.

[Anariel]

Sorry if you have knowledge enough to say 'you are my oshimen' then you better know the 'petty details'.

People apprehend new information but not completely understand it in the correct way at first sight, so mistakes are possible. Nothing wrong with that. I think girls can forget this shit unless every second SG's fan will say it to them.

But, yeah I am agree with you, it's kinda stupid to say "2nd oshimen" and I wouldn't do this 

[winner]

You guys are right. What happened sounds totally innocent and lost in translation.

"Team B Oshi" would be a good example. They go through all the Team B names, but the last line is "But in end, you support Team B, right?"
So it's cool if you like one member. It's also cool if you like the group.
But inappropriate to tell them their order. Being placed 2nd in a group of 48 members is great of course. But you shouldn't say it just from simple manners.
Look at it as saying "I support you, 2nd" to one of your 2 kids, and you'll understand why it's weird.

The girls have a lot of gratitude towards fan support. They sing it, they show it all the time, and they basically go through each day with this gratitude.
Of course largely due to Japanese tradition, courtesy they've been taught as a kid, and it's like 'their job'. But it's also from simple honest love and respect.

[SomethingWild]

But inappropriate to tell them their order. Being placed 2nd in a group of 48 members is great of course. But you shouldn't say it just from simple manners.

Even though I agree, the Senbatsu Election completely goes against this in some way 

During 1ji59fun they had a segment were celebs had to pick their oshimen; just one favorite. Sata, Takada Junji and even the announcer announced their #1 girl. From that perspective, I'd agree with the statement that you can only have one oshimen.

If anybody would ask me who my oshimen is, it's gotta be Rena. Easily. She's the one who left the biggest impression on me and I love everything about her. However, I also love Yuki, Kasai and Kumi a lot. Together with Rena they form my ultimate favorites. So, instead of using the term 'oshimen' I may be better off using 'top favorite' or something... lol, anyway, if I ever got to speak with them I wouldn't tell them my ranking at all. Oshimen, top favorite, favorite... I'd just try to let the girl know what I like about her, or something.

lol, I was trying to make a point, but forgot what it was while I was trying to write this.

[winner]

Even though I agree, the Senbatsu Election completely goes against this in some way 

That's why everyone hates it. yet wants to know... same with setlist. AKB is so anti-traditional.

off topic. why is it oshimen and not oshimem? because it sounds smoother in english?
I've wanted to ask this since 1ji59fun started!

[Datalanche]

I agree with what Barrie said, pretty much. When I hear oshimen, I tend to think of the kind of fan who is dead set on one girl all the time. I've honestly made an effort to quit using the word altogether, because it honestly holds zero significance to me personally and I truly don't know or even care about the full connotation it has. The meaning behind it (that I see) does not apply to how I enjoy these groups. I definitely have my top favorites, but if for some random reason I decided that I suddenly liked Isohara Kyoka more than Churi for SKE, I would feel no shame for swapping my top favorite title. The worst thing that's gonna happen is judgmental people gonna judge my fandom, which isn't even worth caring about. A lesson I desperately wish I had learned long ago. lol

tl;dr I just chalk it up to fandom misusage similar to anime fans who run around saying "You are so suteki kawaii desoo."

[maliciel]

off topic. why is it oshimen and not oshimem? because it sounds smoother in english?

I think it is because of how it's pronounced. With men-baa, you get an 'm' sound at the end of men, making it sound like mem-baa. This is similar to 'senpai' and it sounding like 'sempai'. But if it's just 'men' alone like 'oshimen', then it can only really be 'men'.

Anyway:

Dr Strangelove Or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love My Oshimen

The oshimen concept is something I struggled with, and still do. 

Even back when I was a 'fan' (I hesitate to say this; I was not a very good one) of Hello! Project, I did not have a clear favourite. Of course, I was always the 'haha fuck the underdogs', but it was basically just a matter of who I liked to see, and why I liked to see them. Given the small numbers in H!P (relatively, they were all split into different very distinct groups), it was easy to do this. I would support whoever I thought deserved it, and it was easy enough to support the whole of Morning Musume, given how much they appeared as a group.
 
Of course, when I converted (not really, I took a long  break from Japanese pop in general) to being an AKB48 fan, this concept of oshimen befuddled me. Was I supposed to support only one girl? But what about the group? Am I supposed to just cast off the group aside, or was I supposed to see the group as a way to support my oshimen? What the fuck was an oshimen in the first place?

I looked for answers. At this point I was just starting out in Japanese (granted, it is still pretty fucking bad now), so I looked to the foreign fanbase (on forum discussions) for answers. And no one could really give me a proper answer to this; it was all just a smattering of groupthink. No one really could give me a good answer.

People always ask me about my AKB48 girl rankings. Now this is something that a lot of foreigners like to do in their free time. Some make a huge deal about it (you know who you are!) and others just fuck around with their rankings (godammit man, her hair sucks, down she goes!). My answer is always "I don't do rankings" followed by "Well, if you really asked, #1: Suzuki Mariya, everyone else is tied for #2" then followed by a joke about how Tanabe Miku is my secret lover.

I hesitate to even call Suzuki Mariya my oshimen; I'm not even sure what having her as my oshimen entails. Is that when I am blind to her flaws? When I cheer only for her when I see her live (I've seen her live 5 times!)? Is it when I only have eyes for her, and ignored the rest of the group? Is it when I post on fanforums about how she 'deserves a spot and FUCK Yasushi for not giving her one'? Is it when I have an album full of Mariya namashashin (which I do but no one wants to see orz)?

Is all this qualification really necessary?

No.

It doesn't matter if your oshimen is at the bottom of the mixi list, or if you see more casual fans liking her. It doesn't matter if you can't spend on her goods, because your only avenue is 2nd hand and due to her popularity, the prices are sky-high. What matters in the end is, you like her and are willing to support her. Of course, I think the foreigner concept of 'my oshimen isn't there, might as well not support this' is foolish: By adopting a position like that, you are perpetuating the less beneficial outcome, and you only stand to lose out.

I still think that Suzuki Mariya is the best possible center for AKB48, and that she should get a million photobooks, but that doesn't mean I can't support the rest of the group. It's only right to support the group that makes it possible for me to see her, even if it is not all the time. Foreigners attempting to adopt the Japanese way of support are just blind to the fact that it's not Japan, and the fan climate is different. When you have to take what you can get, being picky helps no one. This is not to say it's wrong to be that way, but I AM saying I don't agree with it.

In the end, 'oshimen' is just a word. Conform if you want, or don't. It's not a life philosophy; lighten up and learn to love your Oshimen.

[jafeijai]

....What's Kami-Oshi?

By no way am I the one who knows this for sure but, kami-oshi seems to be the term for your unmoveable/irreplaceable oshi (oshi4lyfe so to speak).

If someone knows better, please do correct me; I'm interested in knowing for sure as well.

off topic. why is it oshimen and not oshimem? because it sounds smoother in english?

I think it is because of how it's pronounced. With men-baa, you get an 'm' sound at the end of men, making it sound like mem-baa. This is similar to 'senpai' and it sounding like 'sempai'. But if it's just 'men' alone like 'oshimen', then it can only really be 'men'.

In addition, I think it's because of how the Japanese characters are romanized: 'member' is written as メンバー in Japanese and pronounced 'men・baa'; so when you go to romanize 推しメン, the ン character gets romanized to 'n', leaving you with 'oshimen' as the resulting romanization.

Of course, when I converted (not really, I took a long  break from Japanese pop in general) to being an AKB48 fan, this concept of oshimen befuddled me. Was I supposed to support only one girl? But what about the group? Am I supposed to just cast off the group aside, or was I supposed to see the group as a way to support my oshimen? What the fuck was an oshimen in the first place?

To be honest, I still don't fully understand the concept; and I'm approaching the end of my 2nd year in this craziness. Maybe because I was never really thrown into the fanbase as some others may have been. I think the steady growth of this subforum was the reason why I was able to not feel the 'oshi' pressure (At the time, I wasn't part of any other AKB-related forums). But hey, as long as these girls continue to do what they do on stage and in front of the camera, I'm totally satisfied with just liking whoever the heck I want to like and enjoying the ride.

[Melchizadek]

I wonder what the girls would think about me saying I have an oshimen for AKB, one for SKE, and another for NMB.

Really, though, I've been madly in love with Tomochin from day one of my fandom.  I don't see that changing anytime soon.  However, I don't think that means she's the only one I can support.  There's been times when Tomo~mi's come awfully close in my heart.  In fact, I voted for Tomo~mi in the senbatsu election.  Does that make me a bad Tomochin fan?  Some people would probably say it does, but I just couldn't stand the fact that the agency they're both with is pushing Tomochin with everything they have while putting Tomo~mi on the back burner.  I want to see them both succeed.

With SKE and NMB it's a bit more clear cut.  Anna and Sayaka are each leagues ahead of all the other girls in their respective groups.  In fact, I'd say they're right up there with TomoTomo.

So that leaves me with four girls that I want to support with everything I've got.  And quite a few others that I really like a lot and want to see succeed as well.  What does that mean?  I don't know.  I guess if I ever meet one of them, I'll just take Maliciel's advice and say "daisuki!"

Also, I gave up on trying to do rankings a while back because after a certain point they just all end up tied in my mind.  I don't actively dislike any of the girls, so having one end up in last place just seems wrong to me.

[maliciel]

So that leaves me with four girls that I want to support with everything I've got.  And quite a few others that I really like a lot and want to see succeed as well.  What does that mean?  I don't know.  I guess if I ever meet one of them, I'll just take Maliciel's advice and say "daisuki!"

The last time they came, I know of someone who blurted out 'Mocchi oshi' when though he actually prefers Kojiharu to her. It was silly, all in all.

[SomethingWild]

Just noticed that the guy in this video uses the terms oshi, ni-oshi and san-oshi 

[almond]

I'm still pretty confused on the whole oshimen definition myself. I thought it meant favorite member since that's what Yuko and Sayaka said in the NYC concert MC, but I understand the other definition (in theory). That doesn't mean I can choose between my two favorites, though 

As a side note, the election guide book for this year comes with Oshi stickers, including 1 Oshi, 2 Oshi, DD, Kami-Oshi. So maybe it's acceptable to have 2 Oshi, but they'd have to be tied and not one in 2nd place? I dunno... 

[MaxMcKay]

I'd like to inquire:

Those who are fans with oshimen(s), are you really a fan of AKB48, or only the oshimen? As in if your oshimen graduates, will you cease being a fan of AKB48 altogether?

Asking only because in H!P's world, being a fan of only 1-3 group members instead of the whole unit collectively is generally frowned upon

[boykun]

The oshimen thing to me was just another way of saying my favorite member. I see myself as a casual fan, so I don't get into that deep stuff.

I am a fan of AKB48. My oshimen is Oshima Yuko. If she graduates, it would suck, but in the end, I don't care lol. AKB48 is so massive, so many personalities that it's easy to find someone I'll like, so of course I'll still be a fan. Though when I was into H!P, I slowly ceased being a fan after Ogawa left. However it was also because I felt there was a decline in quality and it just didn't feel the same after that. They weren't everywhere like they used to be anymore, and it was harder to find content(like TV stuff). I was a lazy casual fan, I guess. AKB48 is all over the place now, it's hard to avoid them, so easier for me to keep up with stuff, lol.