JPHiP Forum
The AKBar48 => The AKBar48 => Topic started by: maliciel on February 22, 2012, 04:54:41 PM
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Let's have a discussion on this, I think it's an interesting topic. Also because people complain I don't post any more.
As background information:
A few days back, Rena made this post (https://plus.google.com/108536765591006886419/posts/4GiEfn59JhZ). I'm not about to translate the whole thing verbatim, but the gist of the message is she's talking about how fans behaving badly during handshakes, asking them to straighten the fuck up, basically; she's not really concealing her displeasure all that well.
Edit: There's a translation here: http://forum.jphip.com/index.php?topic=20265.msg1005132#msg1005132 (http://forum.jphip.com/index.php?topic=20265.msg1005132#msg1005132)
Here's an interesting view by a Japanese fan, though:
SKE48の松井玲奈さんが、握手会でメンバーがファンの中傷で傷つき、ファンに対し「マナーがなっていない」という旨の記事を書いていました。一般社会で、お客様に理不尽な要求をされることなどは日常茶飯事であり、それを捌けないのは、自分の能力が低いせいであり、恥ずかしいことです。トラブルが起きた場合は、お客様に「説教」するのは「お門違い」で、自分で解決できないトラブルは、上司に相談し、そして、それに対し上司が下した判断に従うのが普通です。従えなければ、辞めればいいだけの話で、お客様に、「説教」をするなど、一般社会でありえない事だということを、教育する必要があると思います。トップは、おそらく、「CDの売上を伸ばすためには、握手会で数人のメンバーが嫌な思いをしてもやむなし」という決断を下すと思いますが・・・また、客の側から言わせて頂きますと、しょっちゅう体調不良で、辛そうな顔で握手会に臨む松井玲奈さんには、「プロ意識」が無く、松井玲奈さんこそ「マナー違反」だと思います。
P.S.「Google 」も検閲されているようで、松井玲奈さんの記事にも上記のようなコメントをしたのですが、削除されていました。メンバーはファンの言動を批判出来るのに対し、ファンからの批判は受け付けないというのは、フェアではないと思います。
Translated informally, it sounds something like this:
Matsui Rena wrote an entry about how the fans were not well-mannered during the handshake event. In society, people making unreasonable demands are an everyday occurrence, and failure to be able to satisfy these demands is largely due to one's own fault; it's an embarrassment. If there's any trouble, blaming the patrons is barking up the wrong tree. Anything that cannot be handled on a personal level should be referred to a superior, who will then make the judgement. If there's no resolution, its just a matter of stopping (withholding) service. To preach to patrons is an unbelievable occurrence. In any case, I believe that when the girls go for handshakes, they put themselves on the line (for criticism, abuse, et al) as a way to sell CDs, that is a decision they made. Also, if anything, the frequently absent (due to illness) and harsh expressions that Matsui Rena shows are the breach of manners, in my opinion.
PS: I also posted this on her entry, but because it's regulated it's already been deleted. I do not think it's fair that members get to criticise fans with no way for us to reply.
What do you guys think?
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The head chef of a restaurant has the right to kick out unruly customers. The head chef of a restaurant has the right to refuse service to any customer. This may decrease revenue to the restaurant because the head chef is turning away customers, but it is still the head chef's right.
Why should this be any different?
As for that Japanese fan's response:
1) It doesn't address any of the points that Rena brought up; namely, that if abusive behavior continues handshake events will no longer be held and everybody loses. This is a very strong argument.
2) "In society, people making unreasonable demands are an everyday occurrence, and failure to be able to satisfy these demands is largely due to one's own fault; it's an embarrassment."
...What? This is nonsense. External circumstances are external circumstances, and the definition of an unreasonable demand is that it cannot be carried out, therefore the burden lies on the person who made the demand in the first place.
In addition, just because society is a certain way doesn't mean that it's automatically right. The reason why the girls write such things is to highlight a situation in society (in this case, fandom society) that is wrong so that steps can be taken to fix it, and thus improve society.
3) "If there's any trouble, blaming the patrons is barking up the wrong tree."
Again, nonsense. Sometimes the patrons really are wrong, and the franchise is under no obligation to tolerate it. The franchise is now large enough that it can afford to be more picky about who their patrons are. This includes excluding toxic patrons.
See also my head chef example. Even if it's barking up the wrong tree, the franchise has that right.
4) "Anything that cannot be handled on a personal level should be referred to a superior, who will then make the judgement."
Who says she didn't?
Besides which, Aki-P decreed G+ to be an open forum with no censorship, and the girls are entitled to their own opinions. Their G+ accounts are not property of the company, as Nacchan and Yonechan still have their accounts, but just are no longer affiliated with AKB48. This means that they are not restricted to their idol persona on G+, and are not obligated to be shitting rainbow dust 24/7 on G+. It may be more beneficial for them to be idols 24/7 on G+, but by no means do they HAVE to run every opinion through a superior.
5) "If there's no resolution, its just a matter of stopping (withholding) service. To preach to patrons is an unbelievable occurrence."
This is being unfair to the patrons who have done no wrong, because it gives them no warning as to why service is suddenly being withheld. The "good" patrons should have a chance to self-police and prevent it from happening in the first place. This is more effective in the long run because it prevents abuse from occurring in the first place instead of waiting until after it's occurred to inflict punishment, in which both the franchise and the patrons suffer.
See also point 2) about the benefits of raising awareness about an issue amongst the general fanbase to improve society.
6) "In any case, I believe that when the girls go for handshakes, they put themselves on the line (for criticism, abuse, et al) as a way to sell CDs, that is a decision they made."
This does not absolve the fans' responsibility to be decent people. And there is nothing wrong with telling scumbags that they're scumbags. See point 2) about how status quo is not automatically good.
More importantly, this line of thinking objectifies the idols and in effect creates a slave-master dynamic to the idol-fan relationship, which is all sorts of wrong and fucked up. Just because you bought the CD doesn't mean you own them, bub. As Metro Man said, "Warranties are invalid, if used beyond their intended purpose!"
7) "Also, if anything, the frequently absent (due to illness) and harsh expressions that Matsui Rena shows are the breach of manners, in my opinion."
:doh: :doh: :doh: :doh:
Seriously? You lose all credibility with this statement.
8 ) "PS: I also posted this on her entry, but because it's regulated it's already been deleted. I do not think it's fair that members get to criticise fans with no way for us to reply."
Gee, it's not like you can't criticize them at handshake events to their face or anything. Oh wait...
Also, the kind of stupidity spouted in this doesn't need to be spread around, so it's probably for the better that it was deleted. (Especially that last statement. Shut the fuck up, douchebag.)
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This does not absolve the fans' responsibility to be decent people. And there is nothing wrong with telling scumbags that they're scumbags. See point 2) about how status quo is not automatically good.
More importantly, this line of thinking objectifies the idols and in effect creates a slave-master dynamic to the idol-fan relationship, which is all sorts of wrong and fucked up. Just because you bought the CD doesn't mean you own them, bub. As Metro Man said, "Warranties are invalid, if used beyond their intended purpose!"
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Idols are people, not property.
These girls work long, hard hours, to provide us with entertainment. Treating them with any less dignity then you'd give your grandma is wrong. They have hopes, fears, and dreams like the rest of us.
also: RESPECT YOUR IDOLS
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Can I leave my reply as simply "What Rayle said." :lol:
To me, it's self-righteous bull on behalf of fans who think it's okay to bash on girls to their face or tell them disgusting things. If this was a case of girls behaving badly and being lame to the fans I could understand it, but this I see no real argument for. The girls have nothing to do with who is and isn't absent, why are you bringing shit like that to them? And as for being able to tell them anything that comes into your mind, why would you even do that? Yeah some of them are damn sexy and attractive, but why would you wanna humiliate them by saying you want to rub one out on their forehead right to their face. Why should something like that be okay? Why should it be okay to bring business matters to them either? There's staff everywhere from what I've seen. That's all this is about. Superwota butthurt that they can't cross the line. Some people do not understand that idols aren't theirs. They aren't your friend. They aren't your girlfriend. They aren't your wife. They're performers and this is just a meet and greet event. They aren't entitled to tell them any bullshit they please. And yes, that's only by the law of common sense and decency(at the moment, hopefully staff-san will establish some rules soon, it sounds like this shit is getting out of hand if Rena dared to comment on it so harshly, AKB members have also said similar things). "customer service" and "pleasing the customer" came up a lot in that chat when this was brought up. Sorry, wut? I have a hard time understanding that defense on any level. So if a customer asks a waitress at Applebee's for a lap dance, she has to comply? No, that is beyond the scope of what you're getting. This is the same case. You go to see your idol, say hi and ganbatte and move on. In either scenario, yeah you can be a dick customer, but that doesn't make it okay. And as for the "they put themselves on the line" part, that is one fucked up argument. When I walk out of the door to go to work, I walk a good 20-30 feet to my car. I am fairly open to being mugged in this short walk, so if I am, should I not call the police because I put myself in the position of getting mugged since I stepped out of my house? That makes no sense. It may be up to decency and comment courtesy, but just because it's not federal law doesn't make it okay for them to get shit on by loser fans. Show some respect. It ain't fucking hard.
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{leaving my normal good-manners at the door}
I originally wanted to talk about how you should have basic courtesy to other fans. And treating idols like people (like you), cos they are people... duh.
Then I thought about common sense. Basically, doing wrong things to other people are wrong (no matter how many words you add to your comments).
Then I remembered backstage clips of how serious and professional Acchan looked when she sounded off at the members.
I thought "Hey, we don't and won't ever see a millionth of how much effort these girls put in their jobs. Ain't it cool knowing that!"
When I suddenly remembered this guy was a self-centered arse with an attitude problem... :sweatdrop:
So, goes straight back to the start, while being really unhappy.
Rena comments fans to take care not to accidentally hurt other fans, and have fun at events.
He/she then complains complains complains. Tells Rena to shut up. and then thinks he should be heard. And you're a fan... WHAT?! :doh:
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I actually somewhat agree with the poster, but I see no one else does :lol:
I'll post a more concise reply later, but I saw this and I just have to say:
Seriously? You lose all credibility with this statement.
It happens. A lot. The girls are not smiles and rainbows all the time, and they show it. I don't think Rena is any different.
edit: saw a phrasing error.
In society, people making unreasonable demands are an everyday occurrence, and failure to be able to satisfy these demands is largely due to one's own fault; it's an embarrassment.
In society, people making unreasonable demands are an everyday occurrence. Failure to do so is largely because of one's inability to do so, and it is an embarrassing situation.
My bad.
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This sense of entitlement that people this day and age (not just wotas) have is what's destroying the concept of basic human decency. Just because they can (spit in the girls faces, shout profanities/insults at them), it doesn't mean they should. They are not robots. They are living, breathing, emotional human beings. The girls deserve just as much respect and courtesy as the next person (including the fans) does. These rights that the fans believe they are entitled to end where the girls' rights (to their equal dignity) begin.
Anyway, I'm never really eloquent enough when it comes to these things, so I'll just say that Rayle has pretty much summed up my thoughts about this issue. :thumbsup
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I actually somewhat agree with the poster, but I see no one else does :lol:
I'll post a more concise reply later, but I saw this and I just have to say:
Seriously? You lose all credibility with this statement.
It happens. A lot. The girls are not smiles and rainbows all the time, and they show it. I don't think Rena is any different.
In other jobs, generally if someone isn't fit enough to do their job, they take a sick day. With idols, this would include being so tired that they can't muster the energy to be all smiles and rainbows all the time. We've seen Rena pretty much collapse during dance practice in her Pareo documentary, so in some cases where idols are frown-y at an event might be them actually going above and beyond the call the duty to show up at an event when they probably should be resting.
Yes, there might be cases of idols being divas about an event or whatnot, in which case, that Japanese fan's own argument applies in reverse: "If there's no resolution, its just a matter of stopping (withholding) service. To preach to idols is an unbelievable occurrence." Just don't support that idol, dude, if she has no fans she'll eventually graduate.
The fact that Rena isn't any different is kind of why that fan loses credibility with that statement.
1) Why should Rena be held responsible for something out of her control like absence due to illness?
2) Why should Rena be held responsible for something the other girls do and aren't being called out for? The fan isn't complaining about Rena's complaining at this point, he's nitpicking at the fact that she's not smiling 24/7 during a handshake. What you call a harsh expression is really subjective and someone else may see it as something else, dude.
edit: saw a phrasing error.
In society, people making unreasonable demands are an everyday occurrence, and failure to be able to satisfy these demands is largely due to one's own fault; it's an embarrassment.
In society, people making unreasonable demands are an everyday occurrence. Failure to do so is largely because of one's inability to do so, and it is an embarrassing situation.
My bad.
Can you elaborate on the difference in meaning? What exactly does "Failure to do so" mean(failure to make unreasonable demands?) and who is "because of one's" referring to, the idol or the fan? I don't know if this edit refutes my argument against it or not.
Addendum argument against "when the girls go for handshakes, they put themselves on the line (for criticism, abuse, et al)":
It is not that idols should not be criticized, but that the handshake event is NOT the platform to do it. A event where the idol is to meet with fans in person is a gift to the fans, and they should take advantage of that fact to enjoy meeting their idol face-to-face. Using a handshake event to criticize an idol is a waste of a ticket, and they might as well give that ticket to someone else would appreciate it much more. Criticizing idols should be reserved for the proper channels, such as a blog or online forum, as the girls have said that they read online comments about them. Or by that fan's own logic, they should be taking their complaints to the management, who will then relay the message to the idol with more authority. Again, basic human decency still applies, considering how some Kpop idols have been driven to freaking suicide. I think of that heart-breaking Kitarie clip about fan comments(no longer on YT) and fume.
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Yes, there might be cases of idols being divas about an event or whatnot, in which case, that Japanese fan's own argument applies in reverse: "If there's no resolution, its just a matter of stopping (withholding) service. To preach to idols is an unbelievable occurrence." Just don't support that idol, dude, if she has no fans she'll eventually graduate.
2) Why should Rena be held responsible for something the other girls do and aren't being called out for? The fan isn't complaining about Rena's complaining at this point, he's nitpicking at the fact that she's not smiling 24/7 during a handshake. What you call a harsh expression is really subjective and someone else may see it as something else, dude.
Didn't quote the first point because I don't disagree, honestly don't know wtf that's all about. But I don't think what you're saying here really. These people are fans that travel and queue to see their idols. We're talking ridiculously long queues (if you have ever seen a handshake line, its wow, really). It's not so much a matter of 'withholding service' but rather taking so long to see a glimpse of your idol and it turns out she's not very pleased to see you.
Now of course the issue here is 'why you have such expectations of an idol?', but I'll try to show my own perspective on it. I travel early in the morning to the handshake event, I paid likely a few thousand yen to get some tickets, I queue for hours to see Rena and it turns out she's not in a good mood today. I'd be pissed, Rena's own daily experience notwithstanding. She's literally being paid to do this, and it's only reasonable to expect that for the few seconds (5 if you're lucky), she gives you a nice smile. Call me a monster, but I feel like I'm entitled to that after all the shit I go through for it.
'Harsh expression' may be the wrong word, but from my own experience, you will notice it unless you have negative EQ. It might seem like a subjective thing, but I've seen it really obviously, and I'm not the most emotionally in-tune person around. You don't even need to know the girl's mannerisms, it's surprisingly (really) easy to tell when a girl does not wanna be there. While he might be complaining, I think the complaint is a reasonable one.
Can you elaborate on the difference in meaning? What exactly does "Failure to do so" mean(failure to make unreasonable demands?) and who is "because of one's" referring to, the idol or the fan? I don't know if this edit refutes my argument against it or not.
Clarification: Failure to do so on the server's part (using F&B terminology because I don't know an easier way to put it across) is only due to one's (server's) inability to provide the service. There's not so much emphasis on the fault of the server, but rather that it is the inability of the server to carry it out. It's mostly a difference in nuance, because I felt like 'own fault' is not really what is being said here, because it does not seem as harsh in the Japanese text. Again, apologies.
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Didn't quote the first point because I don't disagree, honestly don't know wtf that's all about. But I don't think what you're saying here really. These people are fans that travel and queue to see their idols. We're talking ridiculously long queues (if you have ever seen a handshake line, its wow, really). It's not so much a matter of 'withholding service' but rather taking so long to see a glimpse of your idol and it turns out she's not very pleased to see you.
Now of course the issue here is 'why you have such expectations of an idol?', but I'll try to show my own perspective on it. I travel early in the morning to the handshake event, I paid likely a few thousand yen to get some tickets, I queue for hours to see Rena and it turns out she's not in a good mood today. I'd be pissed, Rena's own daily experience notwithstanding. She's literally being paid to do this, and it's only reasonable to expect that for the few seconds (5 if you're lucky), she gives you a nice smile. Call me a monster, but I feel like I'm entitled to that after all the shit I go through for it.
'Harsh expression' may be the wrong word, but from my own experience, you will notice it unless you have negative EQ. It might seem like a subjective thing, but I've seen it really obviously, and I'm not the most emotionally in-tune person around. You don't even need to know the girl's mannerisms, it's surprisingly (really) easy to tell when a girl does not wanna be there. While he might be complaining, I think the complaint is a reasonable one.
This I can understand. There are unknown circumstances on both sides here: the fan may have gone through a lot to be there, and the idol also may have gone through a lot that day. You have a point about the idol being paid while the fan paid, though.
In your opinion, can you tell the difference between "when a girl does not wanna be there" and when a girl does not wanna be there but is trying to be positive about it anyways?
Clarification: Failure to do so on the server's part (using F&B terminology because I don't know an easier way to put it across) is only due to one's (server's) inability to provide the service. There's not so much emphasis on the fault of the server, but rather that it is the inability of the server to carry it out. It's mostly a difference in nuance, because I felt like 'own fault' is not really what is being said here, because it does not seem as harsh in the Japanese text. Again, apologies.
So despite it being an unreasonable demand, the burden is still on the server for not having the capacity to carry it out? Can you explain what he means by " it is an embarrassing situation"? It's embarrassing that the demand cannot be met, or that unreasonable demands are an everyday occurrence? Since he follows by saying " blaming the patrons is barking up the wrong tree," I think the fan meant the former, but it seems like an odd position to take.
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This I can understand. There are unknown circumstances on both sides here: the fan may have gone through a lot to be there, and the idol also may have gone through a lot that day.
IMO I don't think I should have to consider this every time a girl treats me badly. I do however, find myself thinking this a lot in the hopes that she doesn't hate me :lol:
In your opinion, can you tell the difference between "when a girl does not wanna be there" and when a girl does not wanna be there but is trying to be positive about it anyways?
From my own experience?
No. If anything the girl pretending to be positive makes her unwillingness stick out really easily. If a girl is unhappy for some reason or another and doesn't want anyone to know, there would be no way for you to know. I've come up with some sort of classification of the girls at handshake, from the ones I have seen. Again, just from personal observation, if you don't agree then you're welcome to.
The Broody Bunch: People like Satou Natsuki. She doesn't seem to smile very genuinely, and between handshakes (while fans are walking along) her expression changes really quickly.
The Needy: People like Milky. These ones can really turn on the heat, they grab you like a vice and never let go. Most leave quite satisfied.
Forever Faboulous: Like Suzuki Mariya. There's literally never a time when she's not smiling in the handshake queue. Or maybe I'm just biased.
Obvious Octopodes: Girls like Lovetan. They generally let their gaze wander, never pay attention to the person in front of them and are generally bad handshake partners. Most fans have gotten used to it.
The OOs are really easy to read, and they don't have any sort of facade. I've never gotten a favourable response from Lovetan, but I love handshaking her because she doesn't take shit from anyone. Also because she's too cute to get angry at.
The FF group is really nice, but like the Needy girls, you can never tell if they're unhappy or not, because they're both really good at what they do. It's hard to figure out because they're always in the game. These girls are hard to read, but an absolute pleasure because you just never have to think so deep, it's easy to believe that they actually like you.
The BB girls are the most turn-off of the bunch. At first you are kinda happy that they're so nice, then you realize what you're actually seeing is her smiling despite not wanting to be there. I feel like the idolxfan relationship is a 2-way street, and behavior like that kind of makes me feel like I failed on my part to make it a happy event.
So despite it being an unreasonable demand, the burden is still on the server for not having the capacity to carry it out? Can you explain what he means by " it is an embarrassing situation"? It's embarrassing that the demand cannot be met, or that unreasonable demands are an everyday occurrence? Since he follows by saying " blaming the patrons is barking up the wrong tree," I think the fan meant the former, but it seems like an odd position to take.
Being unable to fulfil a patron's request is what he means by 'embarassing', I believe. And fuck I realized I said something wrong again, he basically said 'preaching to the patrons is barking up the wrong tree', rather than my earlier translation. I don't think he places the burden on the server, but just rather makes a statement that not being able to fulfill a request is not particularly flattering to the server.
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Hmm, now this is an interesting topic indeed.
Personally, I think that the way some fans behave is disgusting. It's only my opinion, but there is no justifiable reason to say some of the unpleasant things the fans say.
But, lets look at it from the other side too. As a fan, you arrive at the handshake event and one of the girls just isn't with it. She doesn't really grip your hand, doesn't look you in the eye's and doesn't smile. This is probably cause she is having a really bad day. Sure, she might just not be that into it (as mentioned, some of the girls aren't). But she might have had a bad fight with a family member, had an accident or something else unpleasant. Who really wants to be remembered by that girl as the jerk who swore at her when she was already trying to deal with a lot. I'd much rather just smile at her, try and say something nice and attempt to get her to smile. If she doesn't, at least I haven't made things any worse for her.
And if the girl just isn't generally into handshake events, well, fans will get used to that quickly and should just accept that's the way that particular girl is. I've not yet had the pleasure of attending a handshake event for any of the 48 girls (I hope to god that someday I do as it's one of my final dreams), but I've been to a few H!P handshake events and it's the same thing. Some girls are really into it, some not so much.
Actually, I went through a lot to get to some of the handshake events, more than most Japanese fans would have to I'd wager. And some of the girls weren't all that into it. And it didn't bother me enough to want to shout at them or insult them. Sure, I'd love it if every girl was all smiles and happiness but sometimes life isn't perfect.
I wish these minority of fans didn't behave so badly. It ruins the experience for everyone. The girls get put off by it. Other fans who are next in line probably don't get such a good reaction because of it. No-one wins.
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if it took shit just for you to make it to a handshake event and your idol was also having a bad day...
- yes, you still deserve to get smiles and rainbows, but if you don't get any, you have all the right to be pissed but you can't act like an asshole while on the event
- the idol on the other hand should try her best to treat her fans nicely but if she can't then we fans should understand (as a good fan/human being should. but hell, if that puts you off then just oshihen or something!)
i just think when something goes bad on either party, someone should just take it easy and just let it go. (yes, even if it took one hell of a wallet rape!) Acting like shit would just make it harder than it already is.
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TBH, I'm not particularly sure why everyone thinks the poster is excusing the actions of the fans who behaved badly.
I feel like it's more a commentary on the professionalism he himself expects from Rena, regardless of what happened. I went through and read the Rena post again, to get a sense of what she's saying. And I have to agree, she does sound a little preachy (and I'm sure if you're American you'd know what that's like too..). It sounds a little different from the usual complaint post (here's one from Ono Erena after someone snapped sneaky photos of her (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/97185/misc%20img/erepyon.png)) that one might post. Granted, this may be all Rena's true personality showing through, but I'm thinking that maybe what he opposes is not what she says, but rather that he felt like she was dangling the handshake thing above this head like a treat.
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The "Handshake types" stuff was really interesting. Would you say that there's a correlation between types and popularity, like most of the senbatsu being FFs and Needys, UG having more OOs, etc.?(Or are senbatsu lines too long at this point to know? :lol: I wonder if Acchan's a BB or OO.)
I don't think he places the burden on the server, but just rather makes a statement that not being able to fulfill a request is not particularly flattering to the server.
I can't quite figure out what kind of point he's trying to make with that statement. Because it's embarrassing not to be able to meet unreasonable demands, and unreasonable demands are an everyday occurrence...what? Maybe it's just me, but rather than making the server look bad, it just makes the demander look like a jerk.
It's assumed that the post is disagreeing with Rena's post content mostly because it doesn't stipulate that the fan still disagrees with behaving badly at handshakes. Also that "idols are putting themselves on the line at handshakes" thing.
Do you think the preachiness was lost in translation? Do you think Sayaka (http://forum.nihongogo.com/topic/12881-fans-being-douchebags-to-the-girls-at-handshake-events/page__view__findpost__p__203526) or Kasai's (http://journal.akb48.org/?p=14412) fan behavior posts were different from Rena's,(in terms of professionalism/preachiness, etc.) and if so, why?
Points 3, 4, and 5 from my first comment in this thread still apply dealing only with his stance on Rena's professionalism.
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The "Handshake types" stuff was really interesting. Would you say that there's a correlation between types and popularity, like most of the senbatsu being FFs and Needys, UG having more OOs, etc.?(Or are senbatsu lines too long at this point to know? :lol: I wonder if Acchan's a BB or OO.)
A little bit I would say. There's definitely some sort of correlation, but whether or not it really is based on their popularity is unknown. Some of the girls are just genuinely nice, and others are just not very into it. But the senbatsu girls are definitely more experienced in any sort of interaction, and if they're pretending, it's going to be hard to tell. I think their 'types' are correlated to how popular they are, because it's an extension of their own personalities.
I've met Takamina, and she's really really good. There's really no way to know how she's feeling, unless its happiness. Sometimes you get several unintuitive pairings. Like for me I feel like Nakayan's a BB, despite her low rank. It might be because she's just not 'an idol' in that sense. Of course, one thing that needs to be mentioned is this is all based on interaction with them as a male fan. They all light up if there's a female fan, lol.
I can't quite figure out what kind of point he's trying to make with that statement. Because it's embarrassing not to be able to meet unreasonable demands, and unreasonable demands are an everyday occurrence...what? Maybe it's just me, but rather than making the server look bad, it just makes the demander look like a jerk.
I think maybe he's speaking of it from the customer's point of view. If a server is asked for something, and he can't fulfill it, the patron is obviously not in the wrong in the patron's own eyes. I think we might be looking a little too far at it, and maybe should move closer to the margins. For example, what I don't feel is an unreasonable request is denied, and due to my own misunderstanding ('it's so simple!') I find it hard to see how it cannot be fulfilled, so I place the blame on the server. And sometimes there are ridiculous rules in place.
It's assumed that the post is disagreeing with Rena's post content mostly because it doesn't stipulate that the fan still disagrees with behaving badly at handshakes. Also that "idols are putting themselves on the line at handshakes" thing.
Maybe this is another thing lost in translation. 'Putting themselves on the line' is correct, but maybe a better way to put it is 'For the sake of selling CDs, they place themselves in a position where there is the potential for upsetting things to happen, and even so [if it happens], they don't stop'. I see your objectification point, but I have to disagree a little bit. The fans objectify the girls, sure, but I feel like that goes both ways.
Do you think the preachiness was lost in translation? Do you think Sayaka (http://forum.nihongogo.com/topic/12881-fans-being-douchebags-to-the-girls-at-handshake-events/page__view__findpost__p__203526) or Kasai's (http://journal.akb48.org/?p=14412) fan behavior posts were different from Rena's,(in terms of professionalism/preachiness, etc.) and if so, why?
A little bit.
Kasai's is pretty much sexual harassment, so I don't really need to speak about that. As I remember those were from her twitter, which is more stream of thought than anything that's really thought out, and she just sounds really fucking depressed.
For Sayaka's, just from the English translation it feels like she's just speaking out about the douchebags that attend HS, but at the same time, her overall message is more emphasizing that she wants to be there, and enjoy HS with everyone else. She mentions that she wants everyone to be civil about stuff, but if you notice that's encapsulated by a huge wall of text. Keep in mind, Sayaka has always been honest with her feelings both on and off screen, and this isn't very out of character.
Rena's is a little more iffy. To be honest you can read hers both ways, and I guess our Japanese friend's reading is a little cynical. But looking at it, you can see how he could interpret it that way. She starts with 'Today I saw some members get hurt.' and ends with 'Can we have some cooperation?'. Of course, I ignored the 'yoroshiku onegaishimasu' and 'thanks for reading' messages at the end, but what I translated is where I think the 'message' ended. Basically, it's a post purely criticizing the behavior at the event.
Point 5 is hard to say, I think. All AKB fans are kept in line by the ban on theater performances, and they have a blacklist for fans who behave badly. So it's actually possible to address problems without any collateral damage on the part of fans that didnt do anything wrong.
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So I guess in the end, the argument all boils down to professionalism?
But really, how far should professionalism go? If you're performing on stage and a member suddenly drops to the floor in a seizure, then would it only be professional to ignore that member having a medical emergency and still continue to perform? What is 'professional' to some may be 'heartless' to others. I mean, I’ve tried watching the video of that scene a couple times but I can’t bring myself to finish it every time because of how cruel I thought it was. A girl was experiencing a medical emergency and only one other person on that same stage had the mind to spare a few distracted seconds of a worried look while the rest continues on like nothing was happening. (K-Pop sure can sure be a scary place sometimes.) I know the whole story is irrelevant to the discussion, but I feel like the meaning of ‘professionalism’ is slowly being twisted into something so ugly, and it shouldn’t be like that. Being professional doesn’t mean you have to leave your humanity at the door.
I really don’t know how much of the preachiness was lost in translation, but I consider what she did (reaching out to the fans and taking the time to explain her honest thoughts) was professional. Had I heard anything about her walking out of the event or just being an overall bitch to the fans right after, then I’d be the first one to call it out as ‘unprofessional’ behavior.
P.S. If anything, I think Sayaka's post was basically the same as Rena's, except that the former opened with a light-hearted preamble while the latter went somberly straight to the point.
Like I mentioned in Rena's thread, when someone who doesn't usually speak out, speak out like that, everyone stops to listen because they know something isn't right. Otherwise, how would these people know where to draw the line?
These are just my two cents, anyway.
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They should do more overseas touring
Especially countries/cities where they haven't been to before, but still has got sizable fanbase
Overseas fans aren't unreasonably demanding,
on the contrary, they'll be so elated at shaking their oshi's hand & getting her autograph they'll just cry
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So I guess in the end, the argument all boils down to professionalism?
But really, how far should professionalism go? If you're performing on stage and a member suddenly drops to the floor in a seizure, then would it only be professional to ignore that member having a medical emergency and still continue to perform? What is 'professional' to some may be 'heartless' to others. I mean, I’ve tried watching the video of that scene a couple times but I can’t bring myself to finish it every time because of how cruel I thought it was. A girl was experiencing a medical emergency and only one other person on that same stage had the mind to spare a few distracted seconds of a worried look while the rest continues on like nothing was happening. (K-Pop sure can sure be a scary place sometimes.) I know the whole story is irrelevant to the discussion, but I feel like the meaning of ‘professionalism’ is slowly being twisted into something so ugly, and it shouldn’t be like that. Being professional doesn’t mean you have to leave your humanity at the door.
The whole post was about professionalism.
I'm not sure why you bring up k-pop, and what is ultimately a very different situation. I don't know what it's like performing in front of a lot of people, but I imagine there would be a lot of tunnel vision going on.
P.S. If anything, I think Sayaka's post was basically the same as Rena's, except that the former opened with a light-hearted preamble while the latter went somberly straight to the point.
That makes a whole lot of difference in my mind, one that makes Rena's 'preachy' and Sayaka's not.
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The whole post was about professionalism.
I'm not sure why you bring up k-pop, and what is ultimately a very different situation. I don't know what it's like performing in front of a lot of people, but I imagine there would be a lot of tunnel vision going on.
Yes, ultimately it's a very different situation, but in the end, it all boils down to how people in general define 'professionalism'. Is it really considered unprofessional to interrupt a performance to help a fallen member? It is really considered professional to just bow your head down and keep quiet while a friend/member/yourself gets verbally/mentally/emotionally abused? Again, what is deemed acceptable as being 'professional' by some may not be to others. In that sense, I don't think there is much distinction between J-Pop, K-Pop, or any other kind of fans there are.
That makes a whole lot of difference in my mind, one that makes Rena's 'preachy' and Sayaka's not.
Ah, then this is where we differ. To me, Sayaka's post came across as having too much sugar-coating [I guess it was written to somewhat neutralize any residual negativity her reaction at the handshake event might have brought up (which I honestly thought was all kinds of awesome, as per the fan accounts :thumbsup)]. Mind you, Rena also did throw a bone and did a bit of sugar-coating before she ended her preaching. But the way she maneuvered it about, I consider as brevity done right. Again, this is just me, but if you want to preach, then preach. I'd really not rather have it masked as anything else other than, because it only calls my attention to the fact that you don't want to be called out for doing exactly just that. I don't see anything wrong with what they're doing anyway, especially since I understand that the issue has been a source of constant frustration for these girls. They need to release some of those frustrations every once in a while. Sometimes, all we really need is a good dose of (civil) honesty from these idols.
EDIT: I found another translated version of her entry. It's a bit different, I think? :? Can you please tell us which one captures the tone of her original post more accurately?
I saw the members who were hurt during the handshake event.
I felt sad seeing that, and that’s the reason I wrote this.
I think there are different things/words which make us feel bad, disgusted and sad when someone says it to us.
We might be able to let some of it go but there are also limits to that.
It might be different for everyone but, I think there are things which every one of us would understand when we step into someone else’s shoes.
This is not a complaint nor anything of the like but, I feel that the close distance which we have during the handshake events might disappear if the members keep on getting hurt this way.
I would hate that and I think it would be a shame if that happened so I wrote this honestly, although there might be people who feel that this is self-conceit.
Of course we all want a fun event right?
There are times when we don’t meet everyone’s expectations and make fans sad but, we always keep in mind to be grateful at all times.
We go to the handshake events thinking of filling the venues with as many smiles as we are able to.
We want to make it an event which makes everyone think “It was fun!” when they go home.
Would you cooperate with us on this?
Please take care of us.
It’s a messy passage but, thank you for reading till the end.
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Translated by: lonehunter88
Apparently, before she made that entry, this is what she first posted (which caught the attention of the fans, hence her second post):
Feelings are meant to be relayed
And not meant to be forced upon someone, that’s what I think.
Is it wrong to think of empathy(caring for each other) as the (proper) manners (when engaging) in communication…?
Translated by: lonehunter88
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For me, both translation are the same. She spoke for other members who got bad treatment from handshake event attendees. She asked politely for fans' cooperation to correct it.
She also apologized about this post in a day later, saying she should not say these since it should be the duty of management staff. (But Yuasa (SKE's manager) seems don't say anything about this incident, maybe since it's already addressed)
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The 2nd translation catches the self-conceit part that the first doesn't. Do you have the original for the post before?
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Did some back tracking.... This should be the precedent post, seeing as how it got more than 2000 +'s.
松井玲奈 - Feb 19, 2012 - Mobile - Public
気持ちは伝えるもの
押し付けちゃダメだって思うんです。
お互いを思いやるのがコミニケーションのマナーって考えは間違ってますか...？
Google+ entry link (https://plus.google.com/u/0/108536765591006886419/posts/Y8g7CMHrWWV)
Yeah, it's definitely the first one. She actually quoted/shared that entry in her second post. I guess a lot of people had asked her about it, so I think the second entry was meant as an explanation.
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I hope all these (needless) hoo-ha won't result in Rena getting shoved to the back & getting less duties
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It seems the discussion has died down, thanks for participating! :lol:
There's been some new drama, detailed here: http://forum.nihongogo.com/topic/13620-rumor-nmb48-hotelgate/ (http://forum.nihongogo.com/topic/13620-rumor-nmb48-hotelgate/)
Summed up, it's an extension of the old hotel scandal a few months back, except this time it looks really bad, with the man involved being known, and G+ being utilized by both sides. Generally overseas fan reaction has been one of disgust (omg this guy is scum, they're kids etc), but none seem to realize that the girls are just as guilty for enabling it..
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Well I, for one, enjoyed the discussion very much. :thumbsup I think it's too quiet here sometimes so discussions like this are great. That's just my opinion, anyway. :D
Been following NMB's drama for a few days now. God, it's messy. Lol! While I have seen that most of the hate is towards the ikemen wotas themselves, I've seen a few overseas fans wishing for some blood to be spilled as well. It's interesting, though. Overseas fans seem more lenient and forgiving than their Japanese counterparts. I guess it's because they don't have the same accessibility to their idols as the local fans do, and so the idols become a bit more precious for them? I don't know if that's the right term to use. I mean, I think their mindset would be something more like, it'll be already lucky for them to meet even an obscure member in their lifetime, and so they're less prone to calling for anyone's blood that way.
I'm not even making sense, am I? :lol:
EDIT: While we're on the topic of scandals, I distinctly remember reading somewhere about an Airin/Rena one? It was right before the NMB scandal exploded. A tumblr user briefly mentioned how it was on the 2ch, but it was quickly dismissed. Something about a possible ex-boyfriend who used the connection to meet Rena? I dunno. Fans sure are scary.
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http://forum.nihongogo.com/topic/13620-rumor-nmb48-hotelgate/ (http://forum.nihongogo.com/topic/13620-rumor-nmb48-hotelgate/)
Am I alone in thinking is highly likely some over-imaginative's fanfic? :lol:
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Personally, I think the official explanation that Runa was talking about her cousin's mother makes a lot more sense than 2ch's conspiracy theories.
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but none seem to realize that the girls are just as guilty for enabling it..
My take on this is that yes, perhaps the first encounter was a mistake on the girls' part, but after that first mistake the Kaito crew have dirt on them that they can use as leverage. If the girls don't do as they say, bam, we get another Nacchan/Yone incident.(Where especially for Yone it's speculated the boyfriend posted the pictures while she was en route to Singapore as revenge for breaking up. For all we know, Yone could have broken up because she decided to put career first.) For the same reason, even if the girls went to management to fix the problem, management can't do much short of illegally destroying the physical evidence. NMB doesn't have the clout AKB has to hush up the media if the wota ever leak the info. In that one Naruhodo 31/48 reporters said they had dirt on AKB members and that it's actually easier to gind out addresses, etc. in Nagoya and Osaka.
So management's probably not doing much because they don't want to give the Kaito crew any cause to go to the press, just when NMB is getting big. Hence why their comment was only concerning Runa, and not the implicated four confirmed to have met with wota.
Also, I just don't care about the purity thing that much. The SDN gals probably had much more interesting stories to tell simply from having previous experience. AKB's strongest personalities were originally the older ones, who then taught the younger ones how to be little spitfires of attitude.
I also agree with what gekikarabuACE said. Why is everyone so thirsty for blood anyways? Shouldn't they be supporting the girls?
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Why is everyone so thirsty for blood anyways? Shouldn't they be supporting the girls?
I think it's that mindset of, 'If I can't have you, then no one can.', that drives them to potentially destroy the very things they love.
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I think it's that mindset of, 'If I can't have you, then no one can.', that drives them to potentially destroy the very things they love.
Then they should die painful deaths. If they are truly fans, can't they be like H!P fans who cheered blessings to Tsuji's & Kaori's pregnancies & marriages?
I don't think what the girls do should be considered a scandal unless it results in
-death of an endangered living thing(s)
-hospitalization of another person(s)
-the girl(s) being imprisoned
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I don't even know if this post should go in here, but since we're talking about fan behaviors during hs events, then why not fan behaviors in social media as well? All translations courtesy of mahoushoujoari from tumblr (http://mahoushoujoari.tumblr.com/post/19002765174/matsui-renas-google-update-09-03-12).
Just a while ago, Rena did a very interesting experiment in with her G+.
松井玲奈 - 8:08 PM - Mobile -Public
この記事にはコメントを書き込まないでください。
Plese don’t fill this post with comments.
お願いします＠ ‘ェ’ ＠
Please.＠ ‘ェ’ ＠
Initially, it got filled with comments, but after a while, most of the users had removed their posts. (Lol, I thought it was funny that Yui's comment was one of the handful that remained.)
She then posted a brief explanation after...
松井玲奈 - 9:12 PM - Mobile - Public
私はコメントが減った事に感動しました！
I noticed that the comments decreased, and I’m deeply moved by that.
悪ふざけです。
It’s just a prank.
我慢大会ってやつ？
Something like an endurance tournament, I guess…?
お付き合いありがとうございます！
Thank you for having kept me company with it.
...proceeded by a detailed one an hour or so later.
松井玲奈 - 10:32 PM - Mobile - Public
我慢大会はみなさんがどんな反応をするのか知りたかったんです。
I wanted to know everyone’s reaction to an endurance tournament.
気分を悪くした方がいたらすみません。
I’m sorry if I ruined someone’s mood.
なんかコメントをすることに必死になっている方がたくさんいるなと感じたんです。
It’s just that I noticed that there are people that are just desperate when it comes to comment.
コメントをしたいのにできない方がいるにもかかわらず、一文字だけのコメントがあったり、内容に関係なく「コメントできた」的なものがあるのをみて、私は図々しくも「それは違うんじゃないかな」と思ってしまって。
Seeing that, in spite of the people wanting to comment but that are not able to do it, there are comments with just one character, or with contents that have nothing to do with the post, like “I was able to comment”, I shamelessly thought “No, that’s not right!!”.
コメントがあると嬉しいです。でもなんで嬉しいかって言うと、私達が書いたことに対して反応があるからなんです。
I’m happy to see comments. But if you ask me why am I happy, that’s because we can read reactions to what we’ve just wrote.
会話をしていて「面白いね」と行ったのに「こんにちは」と言われたような話しのかみ合わなさは寂しいです。
If I try to put on something like a conversation saying something like “It’s fun, isn’t it?” and then I get “Hi!” as a reply, that doesn’t make sense, it’s sad.
もし後から編集をしてしっかりコメントをくださるのなら「編集」とか分かるように書いていただけると嬉しいです。
If you plan to edit your comment later, I’d be happy if you’d write something like “Editing”, so that I can understand that.
私はコメントよりも読んでいただける事が何より嬉しいんです。
More than comments, what makes me happy is that people read what I write.
ああ、また気分を悪くしてしまったらすみません
Ah, I guess I ruined the mood again, I’m sorry.
小娘の戯言だと思ってください。
Please think as if this is just some little girl’s nonsensical talk.
Mad respect for her for addressing this very common practice amongst the fans - commenting just for the sake commenting itself, rather than communicating with their idols. Obviously, not everyone is going to like it, but personally, I'd like an idol who prefers real conversations with her fans than those mindless '1st comment!/2nd/500ww/whatever-number-that-comment-is' type of comments. Lol!
What do you guys think? Is she being preachy again? :P
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I'd rather have someone who was honest and upfront about it like this than someone who just blindly accepted the situation instead. Not that I'm blaming any other members or anything like that, it's more along the lines of I like this kind of trait in a person. To me honesty and trust is a huge foundation in building a relationship, whether it's among friends or even fans.
Rena is really something.
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And this is why I love Rena-sama. Seriously. She's my second oshimen after Yuko-sama.
Rena-sama is the girl that says what she thinks and is not afraid of people's different reactions. She's just so truthful... She's a perfect idol (and an amazing actress at that note)
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Idol trolls are win. :P There is nothing more entertaining than an idol trolling someone else, whether it be a fellow member, another celebrity on a variety show, or even the fans.
Rena having gained this much confidence from her rise to supreme SKE frontgirl status is actually heartwarming to me. Sassy Rena is just so much fun. I mean, the sheer brilliance of a popular frontgirl writing a "don't comment on this" post is just cake to someone like me. At this rate she'll be reaching Shinoda levels of trolling, and that day will be AWESOME.
It's actually even more heartwarming to see that most ended up obeying her request, because I can tell you that a Western celebrity doing the same thing wouldn't yield any sort of the same results at all. This kind of thing shows why Rena deserves a spot in G+ senbatsu, because there's two-way interaction, not just a one-way idol ---> fan IV drip of management sanctioned fluff.
As for idol preachiness in general, that rarely bothers me because it's so easy to ignore. :sweatdrop: If an idol's blog or feed becomes too preachy, I'll simply not read their entries and just enjoy their non-preachy existence in other media. So no, I don't really care if Rena's being too preachy or not.
The other thing being that similarly to what I said above, an idol speaking out like this is a rare instance when we can see an idol outside of the censorship wall of management. It's one of the few times we can know what an idol is ACTUALLY thinking, whether we agree with their opinion or not. For that reason, I'd gladly accept more preachiness, simply because it allows me to know her better, and know that it is her that I'm getting to know, not an image designed to make bank.
That's why Mayuyu's 2010 sousenkyo bitch fit was far more interesting and appealing to me than her more prudent but BORING "smile and nod" speech the next year. For a few glorious minutes we got to see the real living girl beneath the cyborg exterior. I certainly do admire her savvy polish and professionalism, but having at least the illusion that we also know a bit of the "real" her is what separates an idol from a normal celebrity or actress.
I believe that Japanese variety is so obsessed with ridiculous games, especially punishment games, partially because it both forces idols to real show their true selves in moments of shock, surprise, fear, etc., and that how an idol deals with humiliation or bizarreness is more telling about their true personalities than any scripted interview ever could.
Compare to K-variety, which is hell-bent on placing their idols on pedestals and praising them to high heaven as "the ideal [insert job here]" and while I love my Kpop idols too, (surprise surprise, usually the ones who "break their image") I don't feel as much of an emotional connection to them. My Kpop fandom is more based in removed admiration for their abilities and skills.
But since many Jpop idols don't have those skillsets to use, my Jpop fandom is more based in personal admiration for how they've grown in their situations, which relies on the behind-the-scenes stuff, especially their opinions on various issues, from which we can frame how we interpret their actions.
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What do you guys think? Is she being preachy again? :P
Not really, but I don't like how she apologizes for it.