JPHiP Forum
General => Akihabara => Topic started by: bolivar on October 16, 2006, 08:13:41 AM
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Beside using BT, What other P2P programs do use to source for Japanese files like Anime, TV shows, Movies, DVDs etc?
Discuss your problems encountered when using these P2P programs!
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I'm using winmx and soulseek to find the japanese stuff sometimes. But, winmx's queue thing is very annoying. But the dl speed is good for me. Soulseek = easy to find files. But the dl speed is really slow T_T;;.
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WinNy and SoulSeek. WinNY for anything Japanese, and slsk for music and occasionally videos.
I tried Share because it was supposed to be better than WinNY, but I can't even start a download. :lol:
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I use WinNy too but i was quite unhappy with the result, Always can't get the the file i want, Guessed it was something to do with cluster words, any advice?
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What's with the weird caps for ny and share in the list? They refer to themselves as "Share" and "Winny", no random/all caps.
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I use WinNy too but i was quite unhappy with the result, Always can't get the the file i want, Guessed it was something to do with cluster words, any advice?
Good H!P cluster words:
モーニング娘
松浦亜弥
飯田圭織安倍なつみ矢口真里石川梨華吉澤ひとみ辻希美加護亜依高橋愛紺野あさ美小川麻琴新垣里沙藤本美貴亀井絵里道重さゆみ田中れいな
Be sure they're you're first non-specific downloads and hit the "make cluster" button so it sets them to 4096/0 for the min/max file sizes to prevent downloading off them. Also with ny, use autodownloads, otherwise you'll get much crappier results.
I tried Share because it was supposed to be better than WinNy, but I can't even start a download. :lol:
Probably just didn't have all it's directories configured right, that seems to be one of the most common setup errors. It also doesn't have anything like ny's port 0 mode, so you have to have a good incoming port.
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I'm pretty sure it's referred to as WinNY, as well. Share is indeed all lowercase, though.
Probably just didn't have all it's directories configured right, that seems to be one of the most common setup errors. It also doesn't have anything like ny's port 0 mode, so you have to have a good incoming port.
That sucks. Took me a while to pick a good port to stay connected to the nodes. I guess I'll have to do some more experimenting.
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I'm pretty sure it's referred to as WinNY, as well. Share is indeed all lowercase, though.
It is sometimes just because of how it was developed in reaction to and named because of WinMX. But the program itself never uses that capitalization, at least in any version I can remember having used or have currently installed. Either way, it's listed in the poll as WinNy not WinNY so...
http://winny.info/2ch/ has all the logs saved from when it was being created, http://winny.info/2ch/main/1017590243.html is the first one where they're discussing the name.
That sucks. Took me a while to pick a good port to stay connected to the nodes. I guess I'll have to do some more experimenting.
It only matters if you're firewalled and have no control over it (like a lot of college dorm residents are.) Otherwise it just needs one open port to work, same as ny and BT each need one.
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I like share and eMule. share for the spiffy shit, and eMule for things that won't be found on trackers/share.
Winny never connects when I try it, and the epic queues+shitty speed on slsk drive me insane. :sweatdrop:
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I use WinNy too but i was quite unhappy with the result, Always can't get the the file i want, Guessed it was something to do with cluster words, any advice?
For me I found adding a cluster word makes no difference.
When you find something you want, don't try downloading it right away as it rarely ever starts first time, add it to your download list as quick as you can. Always add the file to your download list. When you added it, always open the list and check it's there as it doesn't always add if you lose connection with the person. If it didn't add, rightclick the filename and copy it and add it manually in the form
filename.avi,,0,0,,0
each entry on a seperate line. If you added it manually the entry doesn't always get removed after the files finished downloading, so it's a good idea to check the list after a file downloaded and remove the entry manually, or else it'll try downloading it again later.
The only other p2p I use is limewire. I've used emule once but it was very slow.
Kazaa and Winmx died didn't they? I found they were getting less and less results so after the last reinstall I never bothered re-adding them as they were useless to me.
Did they revive Morpheus? I used it a few years ago but it stopped working and there were a number of new experimental versions which were crap and never worked, then everyone forgot about it and moved on to better things.
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Thank You, my search results improved slightly. I have a question in Share. I m able to connect in Share but when i try to add them to download, it juz wont start, Is there a root folder for the downloads.(I opened my log & it always show 06/10/16 23:05:35 ERROR: Cache manager error System Error. Code: 3.
The system cannot find the path specified)
Cos i found so many results but can't download a thing. :doh:Any advice?
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Thank You, my search results improved slightly. I have a question in Share. I m able to connect in Share but when i try to add them to download, it juz wont start, Is there a root folder for the downloads.(I opened my log & it always show 06/10/16 23:05:35 ERROR: Cache manager error System Error. Code: 3.
The system cannot find the path specified)
Cos i found so many results but can't download a thing. :doh:Any advice?
you need to specify a download, upload, and cache folder.
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you need to specify a download, upload, and cache folder.
Ohbahsan, can u list me your SHARE root folder directory & general settings. Should i create the folder manually or create through SHARE? cos i am unable to create one.
Thanks a bunch :)
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I just get stuff off trackers. none of those other programs work for me :/ I loved WinMX
Thanks a bunch :)
Wow...if you find something good, please share with us on the JPH!P Tracker first :)
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Ohbahsan, can u list me your SHARE root folder directory & general settings. Should i create the folder manually or create through SHARE? cos i am unable to create one.
Thanks a bunch :)
My folder.ini looks like this:
[CacheFolder0]
Path=C:\download\cache\
Quota=0
[DownFolder]
Path=J:\download\
Quota=0
[PrimaryCacheFolder]
Path=C:\download\cache\
Make sure all of those folder's exist. Also note, if you have a non-existant folder set to be uploaded, it causes problems with adding items to your queue, but stuff already in there will continue to download. Caused me problems when I changed some of my shared folders and forgot to remove them.
Also, I can't stress this enough: with ny and share, you should rarely if ever bother with searching. Use autodownloads and triggers, respectively. With share especially, since you can set it to add everything to your DB instead of just downloading it. Set a trigger on the keyword of you choice to fill up your DB with hits, browse and add stuff to your download at your leisure.
Or if there's something you just want all of, set it to download it all. I've found that to be highly effective when grabbing older episodes of longer running TV shows.
Oh, and if your comfortable with your Japanese and with regexes, there are some plugins for triggering via them - http://wiki.nextp2p.info/index.php?RegExpTrigger
If you're using Share, I also recommend setting up 密告. Cache browser that lets you see everything in your cache, delete stuff, and convert partial files with the option to fill missing blocks with 0s and still convert the rest. Highly useful when you have three seperate partial zip files of an album with 1-2 missing blocks each in different spots.
For winny, WinnyUtil is a must. Has a lot of features, but again the main one you're going to want is the cache browser.
As another note for winny: if you're using any version from 2b7.1 or older and haven't patched it, then you're just asking to get infected. There are known remote exploits and viruses that use them. b7.28 of Winnyp seems to be the most popular, and gives you the option to connect to either the older clients, newer ones, or both, depending on your ini setting.
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My second to BT is eMule.
I don't usually search for Japanese stuff unless I might think of something I might want, provided that I can find it, although the Edonkey network has always been pretty good for finding rare items.
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As another note for winny: if you're using any version from 2b7.1 or older and haven't patched it, then you're just asking to get infected. There are known remote exploits and viruses that use them. b7.28 of Winnyp seems to be the most popular, and gives you the option to connect to either the older clients, newer ones, or both, depending on your ini setting.
Mine's 2b6.6. How do I know if it's patched / how do I patch it? (And don't just tell me to download a newer version cos this one has all the menu's in English which I quite like!)
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Mine's 2b6.6. How do I know if it's patched
If you haven't patched it yourself then it's not. Especially if you're using that old version of 6.6 that someone patched into English.
how do I patch it? (And don't just tell me to download a newer version cos this one has all the menu's in English which I quite like!)
Err, every patch I'm aware of is for 2b7.1. So if you don't want to upgrade then "hope I never get infected" is the main option... SafeNy (http://www.nynode.info/tools/SafeNy_102.zip.readme.txt) is the only other one that I'm aware of which may work since it doesn't patch ny. Instead it works by wrapping itself around ny so all traffic between ny and winsock is passed though it and gets sanitized. Readme says it's only been tested with 2b7.1 though so I don't know if it can load 2b6.6 right or not. Worth a try if you're set on keeping an old version. http://www.nynode.info/tools.html#bof
Vulnerability alert is here http://jvn.jp/jp/JVN%2374294680/index.html There it just says 2b7.1 and older, one of the links seems to say 2b5.7-2b7.1 so 6.6 most likely is vulnerable.
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once i found out about bit torrent, i stopped using anything else
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^ Same.. bittorrent has everything I need.
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I downloaded winnyp b7.28 and tested it by downloading a small file and it all works ok. It's gonna get a bit of getting used to. I assume if I copy over my download.txt and the contents of the cache from the old winny I can resume the downloads.
What bad things could happen with the old version? The only things that have happened to me is I foolishly clicked on an exe I got in a .zip file (it had a folder icon). That was with win98 though, now I'm on xp I don't have file extensions hidden.
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Your cache folder is just a setting in the ini, you wouldn't even have to copy it over, just point the CacheFolderPath= line at your existing one. Download.txt would need to be copied over but should pick up without any problems. Same for Ignore.txt, tab.txt, search.txt, etc.
The difference is that what happened to you before was just social engineering - ny based viruses like the Antinny (http://www.symantec.com/security_response/writeup.jsp?docid=2003-080817-4045-99&tabid=2) variants would take random items out of a person's cache, put them in a folder and zip up the folder with an exe named the same next to it to try to get people to accidently click the exe. You'd have to download the item, unzip it, and run the exe yourself.
With ones based off the remote buffer overflow, they just have to try to connect to you and if you're running a vulnerable version of the client they can automatically infect you and run the virus. Since a large part of ny's network structure involves connecting to lots of random people, the thought that some of them might automatically infect you tends to worry people.
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Back in the day it was all IRC and a little WinMX from time to time...but now it's all about the torrents. I'll occasionally log on once in a while though.
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I just get stuff off trackers. none of those other programs work for me :/ I loved WinMX
Wow...if you find something good, please share with us on the JPH!P Tracker first :)
Sure Daigong! ;) Especially those DVD stuff. I found many results but was unable to download. See how frustrating it is :evil:
For SHARE, I am currently using EX2 Ver 1.0, Is it the latest? How do i update to the latest.
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I dunno about share, but for winny you just need patience. Always add a file to the download list, then wait. Sometimes you'll get the file quickly, within a few hours, sometimes you have to wait months. I've had files finish downloading that I started 6 or more months ago!
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OMG. Now i am able to queue for download but i can't create a cache folder for Share. Thus the download won't start, I wonder how should i create the cache & download folder. :( Cos i tried 'Add folder' but unable to create for cache & download folder.
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OMG. Now i am able to queue for download but i can't create a cache folder for Share. Thus the download won't start, I wonder how should i create the cache & download folder. :( Cos i tried 'Add folder' but unable to create for cache & download folder.
What do you mean you are unable to create the folder?
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What do you mean you are unable to create the folder?
I mean there are nothing transferred into my cache & download folder. Both of them are 0 bytes. The size piece in the download queue wont start though the status was loaded 100%.
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ex2 is currently the latest. Have you tried just manually creating the folders you want to use, editing the folder.ini like the one I posted above to point to those folders, and then opening share to see if it'll pick them up?
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This winnyp works because I've managed to download something with it, but I'm hardly getting any search results. I've got noderefp and also my noderef from the older winny (At first I tried copying my old nodes into noderefp but then I did a test and deleted noderefp and it was able to access the nodes in noderef so having both files seems to be the right thing).
Right now if I try the old winny and search for something I get good results, but then with Winnyp I get hardly anything. Does anyone know why this is?
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Open your Winnyp.ini. Check the [Winnyp] section and look for the line Ver= If it's set to 0 then you're only connecting to people running b7.27+ 2 is the setting for b6.6-b7.1 3 switches between them both, but tends not to work well for me.
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Open your Winnyp.ini. Check the [Winnyp] section and look for the line Ver= If it's set to 0 then you're only connecting to people running b7.27+ 2 is the setting for b6.6-b7.1 3 switches between them both, but tends not to work well for me.
My winnyp.ini doesn't have a [Winnyp] section, but there's a file called Winnyp.ini.txt and it's in there. Is that where it's supposed to be or should I copy the contents somewhere (where?) into the winnyp.ini file?
my Winnyp.ini.txt contains
[Winnyp]
;Ver=0
;TabControl=0
;ZoneId=0
;UpFolder=UpFolder.txt
EDIT: I tried editing Ver=2 in winnyp.ini.txt and also tried copying it into winnyp.ini and neither worked.
EDIT2: I deleted it and started afresh, editing winnyp.ini.txt before I started, and that seems to have done the trick. The only problem is it won't stay connected and I still get no search results. Ah fuck it, I've been using the English version for 2 years and the only viruses I've had are ones I opened myself inside zip files. I'm willing to keep using it and take the risk.
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winnyp.ini.txt is just an example text file, the settings go in winnyp.ini. Also note that you need to remove the leading semicolon, that's there to comment them out.
If you open your winnyp.ini and paste in at the top:
[Winnyp]
Ver=2
TabControl=0
ZoneId=0
UpFolder=UpFolder.txt
Then it should act like the old version but be patched. The other three settings are:
TabControl - can't remember, it's unimportant and off by default
ZoneId - only relevant under XP SP2, it's to disable those prompts windows can give you sometimes asking "are you sure you want to run this?"
UpFolder - it's another way of doing all your upload folders. If you don't have any folders set to be uploaded, then just comment it out. If you do they should be listed in the UpFolder.txt and you can just leave it pointed at that.
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just started using eMule. Best one ive seen yet. Used to use Limewire and Ares. but they suck. I always get results when i search on eMule. Bittorrent is good too.
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If you open your winnyp.ini and paste in at the top:
[Winnyp]
Ver=2
TabControl=0
ZoneId=0
UpFolder=UpFolder.txt
I already tried that. If I do that it doesn't connect to anything- the list of nodes in winny is totally blank. As soon as I comment out the Ver=2 it works again.
I put this page through a translator (http://www.nynode.info/winnyp/v2.0b7.28/) and it seems to suggest you do it like I did in the end - started aftresh and edited the .ini.txt file, and didnt remove the ; either. It works, it just doesn't stay connected to anyone for very long.
Also do I use 2 seperate nodes lists (Noderefp.txt and Noderef.txt) or do I copy the contents of my old Noderef.txt into Noderefp.txt? I tried both anyway and it doesn't help. This version of winny sucks, no wonder so many people say they have huge problems with it.
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I use Share and winny for japanese videos and popular music, and use soulseek for everything music related. I find that there's no point in using the other programs as I could find most things using those programs and trackers. And if I can't it's because they're super rare things.
I tried winnyp a few months back and found the same problems as Dan is getting. 7.28 nodes all seem to be pretty much anime and hentai as that's all I got when making a very general search. But this was back when it was released for only a couple months.
I ended up going back to 7.1 since I've never had any problems with it except for the program closing when I try to add an upload folder which I just add manually.
oh and for winny6.66-7.1 the best cluster for H!P stuff is モーニング娘。松浦亜弥藤本美貴 you can interchange 松浦亜弥 and 藤本美貴 as both give lots of results
As for share, you just manually make whatever folders you want with explorer, and you can add them to your folder list within the program itself. no need to manually add them so you don't have to re-open it.
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i use Limewire oftenly if i want to download Music and video clip which is very rarely to be found on the net
Btw, speknig of download from mIrC, i have a link to download directly from the net, here :
http://rizon.xdccing.com/
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Now i am really afraid to use open source p2p programs like Limewire,MIRC & Gnutella. Juz yesterday, The police raided 25 homes identified by RIAS to be illegally downloading & sharing mp3 & videos. Our ISP spokeman were interviewed & they said they will closely monitor the activity of the users.
This sucks! I wonder if anyone had been caught so far overseas(outside Japan) for sharing Japanese files?
I guess the safest p2p program now will be SHARE since it is closed source.
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^ open/closed source has nothing to do with it. Freenet is as "safe" as you can get and it's open source. Share is safe mostly because the data and the traffic is encrypted.
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I tried winnyp a few months back and found the same problems as Dan is getting. 7.28 nodes all seem to be pretty much anime and hentai as that's all I got when making a very general search. But this was back when it was released for only a couple months.
Sounds like you didn't read the readme and set it to connect to the older nodes...
oh and for winny6.66-7.1 the best cluster for H!P stuff is モーニング娘。松浦亜弥藤本美貴
I prefer the longer one I mentioned earlier. You still get a 30 match against people using your keywords, but an 80 or so one with other people using it. Seems to work pretty well for me, although I've had good luck with both over the years.
^ open/closed source has nothing to do with it. Freenet is as "safe" as you can get and it's open source. Share is safe mostly because the data and the traffic is encrypted.
Indeed, it's the network and protocol design that matters, not whether the client is open source or not. With share and ny there have been products for ISPs and what not available in the Japanese market that can read the protocols for a while now. See articles like this one (http://internet.watch.impress.co.jp/cda/event/2006/06/09/12274.html). Mostly just used for traffic shaping or straight out blocking.
And you should be aware that BitTorrent has pretty much 0 privacy or protection. Wouldn't matter if your client were open source or closed source, the way it's designed pretty much demands that you broadcast who you are and what it is you're sharing with it. If you're paranoid about legal trouble it's not a particularily safe p2p to be using.
Also: Mirc is neither a p2p program nor open source, it's just a shareware chat client that lets you send files. Not sure how that got on your list of open source p2p programs...
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I already tried that. If I do that it doesn't connect to anything- the list of nodes in winny is totally blank. As soon as I comment out the Ver=2 it works again.
I put this page through a translator (http://www.nynode.info/winnyp/v2.0b7.28/) and it seems to suggest you do it like I did in the end - started aftresh and edited the .ini.txt file, and didnt remove the ; either. It works, it just doesn't stay connected to anyone for very long.
Heh, don't trust machine translation. Specific lines off there:
Winnyp.ini.txtをテキストエディタによりオープン == open Winnyp.ini.txt in a text editor.
上記のような設定項目が確認できますが、コメントアウト文字列の;を削除し、Ver=0の数値部分を書き換える事で、Winnypの動作モード(接続先のバージョンの優先度)を設定する事が出来ます。 == Settings in there should be as above. If you remove the comment out character ; then you can control Winnyp's connect mode (which version it prefers to connect to).
書き換えが終わったらファイルを保存し、ファイル名を「Winnyp.ini.txt」から「Winnyp.ini」に書き換えます。 == Once you've finished editing, save the file and change the file name from "Winnyp.ini.txt" to "Winnyp.ini".
Also do I use 2 seperate nodes lists (Noderefp.txt and Noderef.txt) or do I copy the contents of my old Noderef.txt into Noderefp.txt? I tried both anyway and it doesn't help. This version of winny sucks, no wonder so many people say they have huge problems with it.
Which one is used depends on the connection mode if I remember right. If you set it to 0 then Noderefp.txt and if 2 then Noderef.txt. It sort of sounds like your noderef for it might be full of 727+ nodes, I'd just grab a fresh 7.1 noderef.txt from nynode (http://www.nynode.info/node.php/v2.0b7.1/1/d/Noderef.txt), make sure you're set to connect to 6.6-7.1, and try it.
And to be honest, this is the first time I've heard complaints about the version. Most people I've spoke to like the bugs that were fixed and the little features added since 2b7.1. Winny isn't exactly the simplest program, if you want to use it and don't speak Japanese then you're probably going to need patience as the setup can get complicated. Doesn't help that I keep forgetting to mention stuff ^^; I've never tried to help someone that wasn't already a fluent or advanced Japanese speaker set it up...
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書き換えが終わったらファイルを保存し、ファイル名を「Winnyp.ini.txt」から「Winnyp.ini」に書き換えます。 == Once you've finished editing, save the file and change the file name from "Winnyp.ini.txt" to "Winnyp.ini".
Which one is used depends on the connection mode if I remember right. If you set it to 0 then Noderefp.txt and if 2 then Noderef.txt. It sort of sounds like your noderef for it might be full of 727+ nodes, I'd just grab a fresh 7.1 noderef.txt from nynode (http://www.nynode.info/node.php/v2.0b7.1/1/d/Noderef.txt), make sure you're set to connect to 6.6-7.1, and try it.
And to be honest, this is the first time I've heard complaints about the version. Most people I've spoke to like the bugs that were fixed and the little features added since 2b7.1. Winny isn't exactly the simplest program, if you want to use it and don't speak Japanese then you're probably going to need patience as the setup can get complicated. Doesn't help that I keep forgetting to mention stuff ^^; I've never tried to help someone that wasn't already a fluent or advanced Japanese speaker set it up...
Ah thanks! I got it working and now I'm getting as many results compared to the old version.
The thing I was doing wrong was I'd already started it so I already had a winnyp.ini file, and when I tried to edit those extra lines into it it wasn't working. I deleted winnyp.ini, uncommented the lines in winnyp.ini.txt, renamed it to winnyp.ini and started it and that worked.
I realised it might be messing up my original nodes list so every time I was testing it I was copying the original one over each time, so no problems there.
I'm pretty used to the English version so I know what all the buttons do and I can read the katakana, stuff like node,task,folder, so all is fine, and I don't have to worry about being hax0red now. I've still got the English version so I can open that if I forget where a button is and need to check.
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書き換えが終わったらファイルを保存し、ファイル名を「Winnyp.ini.txt」から「Winnyp.ini」に書き換えます。 == Once you've finished editing, save the file and change the file name from "Winnyp.ini.txt" to "Winnyp.ini".
I think I kept the file as txt when I tried it.
I guess I didn't catch that part for some reason...
I'll try this when I actually have space to use winny again.
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I use share besides bittorrent, sometimes
but since you can get almost everything with the help of bittorrent it's my main source.
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Besides limewire I use Shareaza, since it uses kazaa, edonkey and limewire network(s). Share and Winny doesn't have anything different that i couldn't get off the web that i like.
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I use BT and since I'm on Linux (Kubuntu 6.10 Edgy Eft), I use aMule (eMule clone), and Frostwire (free Limewire clone).
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which one of those is the best for finding japanese music and other japanese stuff ?
and where can i get it ?
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Nothing beats BT. Emule is ok but queues are long sometimes. Have used WinMX 3 years ago, bloody long queue, many spammers and irregular download speeds.
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I use BT the most, but Soulseek is good for hard to find J-music, especially 80s stuff and stuff from obscure idol singers...
I don't download stuff from IRC much anymore.
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^ same I've been using Soulseek lately to get my fix of j-indie bands and 70's/80's idol pop :3
I don't know how to use emule :sweat:
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After years of swapping between Kazaa, Soulseek, WinMX, I finally came across Emule and I haven't looked back since. For the amount of files it can't really be beaten. If you have a little bit of security knowledge then you can run it fine without having any problems. It can seem a bit confusing but there's really nothing to it and there's lots of tutorials out there.
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Soulseek for music files, and eMule for everything else. Like marktobias said, eMule just seems difficult, but all you really have to do is actually just click connect and search for the file you want!
WinMX had a great advantage compared to SoulSeek though, the fact that you could download the same file from multiple sources.
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I normally use BT for everything except Japanese movie........
Cabos is quite acceptable for Japanese stuff......
I sometimes use this shared site whenever I can't find files I really want to watch....
Just try it! O0
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I'm surprise no one mentioned newsgroups. Sure you have to pay monthly subscription since your isp's newsgroup is usually crap but speeds are usually maxed out and files have high retention rates.
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I'm surprise no one mentioned newsgroups. Sure you have to pay monthly subscription since your isp's newsgroup is usually crap but speeds are usually maxed out and files have high retention rates.
My isp's newsgroup is pretty good, I still use it from time to time. It was the newsgroup alt.binaries.sounds.jpop where I encountered H!P for the first time.
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I'm using Winny and Share and both are great for the latest H!P ISO's, TV shows and performances.
Has anyone tried PerfectDark? I'm looking for feedback as to how much H!P content is on that network.
Also, does anyone else use the private hellotv WinMX server?
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Has anyone tried PerfectDark? I'm looking for feedback as to how much H!P content is on that network.
Almost none when I looked at it. It's for anime and manga fans primarily. The main H!P related hits were all お宝 and アイコラ stuff
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I tried using perfect dark, I really like that it lets you search within search results. But that's pretty much it :lol:
Can't even skim through the results though since the font is so tiny x_X
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It's for anime and manga fans primarily.
and AV fans :grin:
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I tried using perfect dark, I really like that it lets you search within search results. But that's pretty much it :lol:
Can't even skim through the results though since the font is so tiny x_X
Open visual.txt in the mutagen subfolder.
"default font" = "Arial Unicode MS"
"default font size" = "17"
↑ those control the text of the main menus and UI.
"eye font" = "Arial Unicode MS"
"eye font size" = "14"
↑ those control the text of the search results.
You can also change all the colors and what not in there. All I bothered messing with was the text size, and I happen to like Arial Unicode so I switched to that while I was at it.