JPHiP Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: ggliff on January 24, 2007, 06:16:17 PM
-
Japan schools to rethink beating
Japanese schools should rethink their decades-old ban on corporal punishment, a government-appointed panel has urged. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/6293849.stm)
-
:w00t:
Hope they bring that in while I'm still teaching!!
-
yeh i think beatings should be brought back in all over the world..
-
(http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k15/ggliff/thecane.jpg)
-
Teachers should be able to beat up bullies, just like on GTO....
-
smack those bullies!
-
that'd be a kewl job
official student/bully beater :D
-
Glad I don't live in Japan.
-
These bullies are pitiful
-
they still have corporal punishment in southern asia dont they? like China or Malaysia.
-
I say give all of the kids tasers so they're on even footing. That would reduce bullying imo.
If a kid is giving you trouble in gym class don't talk to a teacher,just whip out your taser and give him a few good moderate-voltage electrocutions. If it was an unjust attack he'll get it back eventually, probably at a more intense voltage level. Kids are smart, they'd figure it out.
-
^ That's not a good idea, as the bullies would just randomly taser the weaker kids when they're not looking and what not. If anyone's gonna do any beating of kids to knock some sense into them, it should be their parents.
-
Corporal Punishment is a good idea, I don't care what some advocates say, beating your child helps more than giving detention or grounding them.
-
Corporal punishment should be left to the parents, but they teachers should be allowed to hit the kids if they get far out of line. I've heard some pretty fucked up stories about teachers being attacked by students and parents, but they didn't fight back because they said they weren't allowed or if they did, people thought the teacher was wrong for hitting back.
edit: oh wait, this is in Japan. I don't know about what goes on there. Though I'm sure there are kids that are in need of a smack upside the head.:hits with chair:
-
dont think they should let the teachers hit em'... let the parents do that.
-
The beatings will continue until morale improves!
-
It seems like, if you give it enough time, people start to forget why corporal punishment was banned in the first place. It was banned nearly world wide because the authority was invariably abused and there is no real way to prevent that. If you give someone the authority to beat other people that person will find ways, sometimes-inappropriate ways, to exercise that authority. Truth is, teachers can be bullies too.
-
In my school days i get canned,lucky younger generation...
-
Without the punishment, these little bastards will run wild. And hey, as long as the bullies are getting smacked, that's fine, they deserve it anyway.:MKevil:
-
dont think they should let the teachers hit em'... let the parents do that.
Totally disagree with not letting the teachers do that, since the teachers are there when the student was misbehaving, and it sets an example for the other students in the class, which wouldn't happen if it was left to the parents. Also, people are quick to blame parents for "bad parenting", but in reality, most students spend more waking hours in the care of teachers rather than their parents, so to not let teachers discipline them when needed, it's no wonder there are so many bullies.
Since 1947, anything from punishing children by making them stand out in the hall to physically striking them is banned.
Pretty hard to discipline kids, when they have banned virtually all punishment.
-
Totally disagree with not letting the teachers do that, since the teachers are there when the student was misbehaving, and it sets an example for the other students in the class, which wouldn't happen if it was left to the parents. Also, people are quick to blame parents for "bad parenting", but in reality, most students spend more waking hours in the care of teachers rather than their parents, so to not let teachers discipline them when needed, it's no wonder there are so many bullies.
Pretty hard to discipline kids, when they have banned virtually all punishment.
You are making the assumption that teachers will act like mature adults. They are humans too, so they won't. You could easily have a situation where a child is beaten by bullies in the school yard and then beaten by a teacher because they were "disruptive" or "inattentive" as a result of the bullying they've endured or the teacher simply "doesn't like their face". Those things will happen and I can assure you a child that is subjected to that level of abuse for years can grow up into a very, very dangerous adult.
-
You are making the assumption that teachers will act like mature adults. They are humans too, so they won't.
And you're making an assumption that teachers (such as myself) can't act like mature adults??
Shit dude, we're talking sending someone out of the classroom, which is currently no allowed, or at worse, giving a bully a couple of lashing with a cane.. Not kicking the living snot out of some kid.
-
Shit dude, we're talking sending someone out of the classroom, which is currently no allowed, or at worse, giving a bully a couple of lashing with a cane.. Not kicking the living snot out of some kid.
QFT. Misbehaving kids, whether they're bullies or not, do not react nor change their behaviour patterns based on intrinsic motivation (i.e. they don't do it because they want to be better/good kids). They need an extrinsic motivator/consequence to get any results. For a lot of them, action is what they know and action is the only thing that will get their attention. Lecturing a kid for 5 minutes on "why" they're being bad and "why" they should be good is just a waste of breath the majority of the time. However, corporal punishment is something that they would/should wish to avoid. Simple child (and human) logic goes/says "avoid that which causes me pain". If they misbehave, they get punished. If they don't want to get punished, they'd better be behaving themselves. THAT is how things work in the classroom.
All of the theoretical ideas and approaches that say "corporal punishment is bad" and "they are ways to get the same results using words" are all well and good, but they're just that. They're "theory". They work in one-on-one situations where the teacher can devote 100% of his/her time to dealing with that one student. In real life those approaches are just not going to work because given the dynamic of the classroom they're just not practical to execute. A teacher cannot devote 100% of his/her attention to one student. Hell, he/she is lucky if he can devote 10% to one single student, given the average class size is going between 25-30 kids.
When it comes down to it, if it works in keeping the kids in line, which it often does, it should be used. People in the education field (i.e. people such as myself and Guchi_Jnr, who are actual teachers and who have atually faced situations like this) know what realistically works and what doesn't. As I said earlier, the theories are nice, but until they can be practically and realistically and effectively used in a real life classroom, they're not going to be taken seriously.
-
QFT. Misbehaving kids, whether they're bullies or not, do not react nor change their behaviour patterns based on intrinsic motivation (i.e. they don't do it because they want to be better/good kids). They need an extrinsic motivator/consequence to get any results. For a lot of them, action is what they know and action is the only thing that will get their attention. Lecturing a kid for 5 minutes on "why" they're being bad and "why" they should be good is just a waste of breath the majority of the time. However, corporal punishment is something that they would/should wish to avoid. Simple child (and human) logic goes/says "avoid that which causes me pain". If they misbehave, they get punished. If they don't want to get punished, they'd better be behaving themselves. THAT is how things work in the classroom.
All of the theoretical ideas and approaches that say "corporal punishment is bad" and "they are ways to get the same results using words" are all well and good, but they're just that. They're "theory". They work in one-on-one situations where the teacher can devote 100% of his/her time to dealing with that one student. In real life those approaches are just not going to work because given the dynamic of the classroom they're just not practical to execute. A teacher cannot devote 100% of his/her attention to one student. Hell, he/she is lucky if he can devote 10% to one single student, given the average class size is going between 25-30 kids.
When it comes down to it, if it works in keeping the kids in line, which it often does, it should be used. People in the education field (i.e. people such as myself and Guchi_Jnr, who are actual teachers and who have atually faced situations like this) know what realistically works and what doesn't. As I said earlier, the theories are nice, but until they can be practically and realistically and effectively used in a real life classroom, they're not going to be taken seriously.
I'm not trying to be insulting but you do know that teachers on occasion molest or even murder their students. It is rare, yes, but it does prove that teachers are just another large group of humans. If you give a large group of humans the authority to beat people bad things will happen. It is just a matter of time. Anyway, I doubt this is going to go anywhere. At some point, a Japanese parent, teacher or politician is going to bring up the subject of liability and it will be dead in the water. If my child suffers a permanent injury because of an over-enthusiastic disciplinarian there isn’t enough money in the world sufficient to compensate me when I turn up with my lawyer and I am positive you would feel the same way about your kid. If having teachers in the schoolyard during breaks and persuasion is not enough to curb bullying you don't have a discipline issue, you have a police matter.
-
Since 1947, anything from punishing children by making them stand out in the hall to physically striking them is banned.
But wasn't that how Risako was punished: by making her stand in the hall with buckets of water? How dare they!
[yt]QbK07Zwik94[/yt]
-
I still think physical abuse should be left by the parents. But still abuse is wrong as it can leave emotional scars and whatnot
-
^ Abuse is such a cruel word. I think you mean "Disciplining" or "Whopping" should be left up to the parents. :P
I'm not trying to be insulting but you do know that teachers on occasion molest or even murder their students. It is rare, yes, but it does prove that teachers are just another large group of humans. If you give a large group of humans the authority to beat people bad things will happen. It is just a matter of time. Anyway, I doubt this is going to go anywhere. At some point, a Japanese parent, teacher or politician is going to bring up the subject of liability and it will be dead in the water. If my child suffers a permanent injury because of an over-enthusiastic disciplinarian there isn’t enough money in the world sufficient to compensate me when I turn up with my lawyer and I am positive you would feel the same way about your kid. If having teachers in the schoolyard during breaks and persuasion is not enough to curb bullying you don't have a discipline issue, you have a police matter.
But I think the kids, even if they did see the teachers in the schoolyard, still probably wouldn't behave anyway right? Because even if the teachers do see bullying, they can't do shit about it. They could probably stay "Stop" or "Don't do that" but that doesn't really work, and as far as I know, they're not allowed to step in at all.
It's as if you're assuming all humans are bad, and once they're given power they will abuse it. No matter what. And while that does happen, not everyone is a power-hungry bastard, there are good people out there. And surely those terds that do abuse their power, won't be allowed to have those priveledges any longer.
All a kid has to do is say that the teacher is doing things unecessarily that's all. The kids not gonna let the teacher and other kids just beat him and not tell his parents about it.
-
I'm not trying to be insulting
Yeah, it's cool, we just happen to apparantly disagree on this issue, that's all. It makes for good, healthy discussion/debate. :)
but you do know that teachers on occasion molest or even murder their students. It is rare, yes, but it does prove that teachers are just another large group of humans.
You're making that statement on the assumption that the majority of teachers will react that way. The truth of the matter is that while cases like these are tragic and gross abuses of power, they do not constitute what happens with the majority of teachers. You said it yourself...incidents like those only happen "on occaission", whereas teachers have to face what they face every day of the week during the school year. Students are getting more and more bold and more and more defiant, yet teachers are continually "handcuffed" because they can't physically do anything to defend themselves or other students.
If having teachers in the schoolyard during breaks and persuasion is not enough to curb bullying you don't have a discipline issue, you have a police matter.
No offense, but that's just wishful thinking. You can't rely on the police to handle issues like this as they won't deem them as serious enough to warrant their presence there. We teachers are left to fend for ourselves 99% of the time, unless someone tries to pull a "Columbine".
I actually have an anecdote for this, and yes, it really did happen. I personally know a teacher that I went to university with who had his nose broken by a 14-year old because he tried to stop a fight between this 14-year old and another student. The teacher had just separated the two of them and was holding the 14-year old back, when the 14-year old headbutted him in the face. The impact hit him square in the nose and partially drove part of his nose cartilage up into his brain. Now he can't teach because his short-term memory, speech, and fine motor control have been negatiely affected. Legal action proved pointless/useless against the boy, as our justice system against young offenders is really lacking. The worst part of it? The teacher was almost sued by the "family" (consisting of his mom and her BF, who 6 months prior happened to be under investigation themselves for apparent mail fraud) of the 14-year old because he "put his hands" on the kid. Now where's the justice in that?
If my child suffers a permanent injury because of an over-enthusiastic disciplinarian there isn’t enough money in the world sufficient to compensate me when I turn up with my lawyer and I am positive you would feel the same way about your kid.
As long as you, as a parent, do your best to be an active person in your kid's life and you take the time to explain and teach your kid/children good discipline or good behaviour and your kid/children actually follows what you as a parent teach them, then you have nothing to worry about.
I personally have always said and believed that the parents should be the ones who instill/teach their kids good discipline and good behaviour. When parents let their kids get away with everything at home, of course they're going to expect that the same thing will happen at school. More often than not this is indeed the case. Kids who are taught good discipline/behaviour at home naturally work and generally do better in situations outside the home. A lack of discipline at home invariably leads to problems at school and other situations outside the home.
It is NOT the job of the teacher to teach good discipline/behavioural skills. OUR job is to teach the subject matter (i.e. Math/Science/English/History/etc.). We are not there to be surrogate parents, yet often we're forced to be. We are not supposed to be there to be disciplinarians, yet often we're forced to be. All we want to do is teach the subject matter.
-
I'm curious, as you seem to feel that teachers or principals are to be trusted with the authority to beat children, would you also trust your school board to have the authority to punish teachers in a similar fashion or does it lose its appeal when the shoe is on the other foot? Surely, your school board wouldn't act arbitrarily when meting out corporal punishment to teachers. You are adults with thick hides so it shouldn't be a problem, right? Anyway, think how interesting contract negotiations could get. ;)
-
I actually have an anecdote for this, and yes, it really did happen.... The impact hit him square in the nose and partially drove part of his nose cartilage up into his brain. Now he can't teach because his short-term memory, speech, and fine motor control have been negatiely affected.
Damn... and I thought that this was just an urban legend. In boxing and MMA, they teach that nose punches can stun you, but not that they can cause traumatic brain injury. I thought that was the stuff of cheasy 80's kung fu movies.
I think the key principal behind the corporal punishment debate is in loco parentis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Loco_Parentis). This legal principle allows teachers to act in the best interests of their students, as if they were their students' legal guardians. In return for taking responsibility over the welfare of their students, teachers also have the right to enforce arbitrary rules on those students - rules that would not be allowed in "normal society". This has been the rationale for things such as locker searches, school uniforms, and yes... corporal punishment.
In practice, corporal punishment in schools was allowed at a time when it was reasonable for parents to do the same. But over the years, social attitudes have changed. These days in many western countries at least, excessive spanking can get a parent into much trouble, as the line between parental discipline and abuse is a very hazy one. Likewise, spanking of teenagers and very young children (I think 2 years old is the limit) can also get a parent into legal trouble. The logic of forbidding it in school is clear: if a parent can't legally spank their child, then there is no place for a teacher to spank a student in the place of the parent.
-
I'm curious, as you seem to feel that teachers or principals are to be trusted with the authority to beat children, would you also trust your school board to have the authority to punish teachers in a similar fashion or does it lose its appeal when the shoe is on the other foot? Surely, your school board wouldn't act arbitrarily when meting out corporal punishment to teachers.
School boards are filled with "executives" who are dillusional enough to think they actually know what happens in a classroom. If they do have classroom experience, had it long ago and who have since lost touch with the changes that have happened in and the reality of the modern classroom dynamic. That being said, they're also often a bunch of image-conscious paper-pushers who would rather just fire a teacher than actually get their hands dirty and take some action. Even if they had the authority to do it, they probably wouldn't.
Anyway, think how interesting contract negotiations could get. ;)
Definitely. :lol:
*WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU WANT DENTAL BENEFITS?!?!?
-
I'm a firm believer in corporal punishment in school, as are my parents. I think 'spare the rod and spoil the child' applies. It's true kids spend more time in school than anywhere else, especially here in SG (which would be similar to that in Japan I suppose). Even if the teachers aren't supposed to teach kids how to behave, they sure as hell should be able to put kids in line.
-
Damn... and I thought that this was just an urban legend. In boxing and MMA, they teach that nose punches can stun you, but not that they can cause traumatic brain injury. I thought that was the stuff of cheasy 80's kung fu movies.
I've always heard that was legend, too. But I've also heard that shit can happen, but it's not like it will happen all the time.
As for hitting kids that are out of line(Whether it's the teacher or parent), it's not like every punishment is going to consist of the kid getting beat down until he/she can't stand up any more. They just need to get hurt enough so it's something they don't want. I got hit when I was I was a kid, but not that much. I don't have any scars or shit like that, but it hurt enough for me to not want to deal with it any more.
I don't know why schools bother with some forms of punishment like suspension or that shit with standing in the hall. Everyone I knew saw suspension as a joke. Punishing a kid who doesn't want to be in class by keeping him out of class doesn't do anything. None of the teachers I had would let you make up work you missed while out of class, but it's hard for your grade to take a big hit from being out just a week or two.
As long as the people doing the disciplining don't go overboard, it'll be fine. Part of the reason kids do so much fucked up stuff is because they know people won't do anything about it.
-
I don't know why schools bother with some forms of punishment like suspension or that shit with standing in the hall. Everyone I knew saw suspension as a joke. Punishing a kid who doesn't want to be in class by keeping him out of class doesn't do anything.
Kids these days welcome suspensions. They often don't want to be in school in the first place, and as such they act out the way that they do in order to get suspensions so that they don't HAVE to go. Giving the kid a suspension lets the kid win because the kid gets away with misbehaving AND gets a little "vacation" from school as a prize.
Part of the reason kids do so much fucked up stuff is because they know people won't do anything about it.
More precisely, the kids know that they'll get away with whatever it was they did because they know that the teachers CAN'T legally/physically do anything about it (which is the problem).
-
I don't know why schools bother with some forms of punishment like suspension
Suspensions are really a last ditch move, aimed not to help the child but to prevent him from fucking up his classmates any more than he already has.
-
don't know if you guys lknow this but in the us a legislation is trying to make it a punishable vrim for parents to spank kids
...
where did all the parenting go?
-
like Russel Peters always says "Parents, please beat your kids"
-
^ Russell's the man! :thumbsup
-
hitting is going a bit extreme there... kind of relates to unethical punishment. i think its unnecessary and shouldn't be allowed