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Author Topic: Japan schools to rethink beating  (Read 4298 times)

Offline monkeyman

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Japan schools to rethink beating
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2007, 06:15:23 PM »
Quote from: Guchi_Jnr;293834
Totally disagree with not letting the teachers do that, since the teachers are there when the student was misbehaving, and it sets an example for the other students in the class, which wouldn't happen if it was left to the parents. Also, people are quick to blame parents for "bad parenting", but in reality, most students spend more waking hours in the care of teachers rather than their parents, so to not let teachers discipline them when needed, it's no wonder there are so many bullies.
Pretty hard to discipline kids, when they have banned virtually all punishment.


You are making the assumption that teachers will act like mature adults. They are humans too, so they won't. You could easily have a situation where a child is beaten by bullies in the school yard and then beaten by a teacher because they were "disruptive" or "inattentive" as a result of the bullying they've endured or the teacher simply "doesn't like their face". Those things will happen and I can assure you a child that is subjected to that level of abuse for years can grow up into a very, very dangerous adult.

Offline Guchi_Jnr

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Japan schools to rethink beating
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2007, 07:14:56 PM »
Quote from: monkeyman;293868
You are making the assumption that teachers will act like mature adults. They are humans too, so they won't.
And you're making an assumption that teachers (such as myself) can't act like mature adults??
Shit dude, we're talking sending someone out of the classroom, which is currently no allowed, or at worse, giving a bully a couple of lashing with a cane.. Not kicking the living snot out of some kid.

Offline JFC

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Japan schools to rethink beating
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2007, 07:43:09 PM »
Quote from: Guchi_Jnr;293904
Shit dude, we're talking sending someone out of the classroom, which is currently no allowed, or at worse, giving a bully a couple of lashing with a cane.. Not kicking the living snot out of some kid.
QFT. Misbehaving kids, whether they're bullies or not, do not react nor change their behaviour patterns based on intrinsic motivation (i.e. they don't do it because they want to be better/good kids).  They need an extrinsic motivator/consequence to get any results.  For a lot of them, action is what they know and action is the only thing that will get their attention.  Lecturing a kid for 5 minutes on "why" they're being bad and "why" they should be good is just a waste of breath the majority of the time.  However, corporal punishment is something that they would/should wish to avoid.  Simple child (and human) logic goes/says "avoid that which causes me pain".  If they misbehave, they get punished. If they don't want to get punished, they'd better be behaving themselves. THAT is how things work in the classroom.

All of the theoretical ideas and approaches that say "corporal punishment is bad" and "they are ways to get the same results using words" are all well and good, but they're just that. They're "theory". They work in one-on-one situations where the teacher can devote 100% of his/her time to dealing with that one student. In real life those approaches are just not going to work because given the dynamic of the classroom they're just not practical to execute. A teacher cannot devote 100% of his/her attention to one student. Hell, he/she is lucky if he can devote 10% to one single student, given the average class size is going between 25-30 kids.  

When it comes down to it, if it works in keeping the kids in line, which it often does, it should be used. People in the education field (i.e. people such as myself and Guchi_Jnr, who are actual teachers and who have atually faced situations like this) know what realistically works and what doesn't. As I said earlier, the theories are nice, but until they can be practically and realistically and effectively used in a real life classroom, they're not going to be taken seriously.

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Offline monkeyman

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Japan schools to rethink beating
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2007, 08:32:37 PM »
Quote from: JFC;293920
QFT. Misbehaving kids, whether they're bullies or not, do not react nor change their behaviour patterns based on intrinsic motivation (i.e. they don't do it because they want to be better/good kids).  They need an extrinsic motivator/consequence to get any results.  For a lot of them, action is what they know and action is the only thing that will get their attention.  Lecturing a kid for 5 minutes on "why" they're being bad and "why" they should be good is just a waste of breath the majority of the time.  However, corporal punishment is something that they would/should wish to avoid.  Simple child (and human) logic goes/says "avoid that which causes me pain".  If they misbehave, they get punished. If they don't want to get punished, they'd better be behaving themselves. THAT is how things work in the classroom.

All of the theoretical ideas and approaches that say "corporal punishment is bad" and "they are ways to get the same results using words" are all well and good, but they're just that. They're "theory". They work in one-on-one situations where the teacher can devote 100% of his/her time to dealing with that one student. In real life those approaches are just not going to work because given the dynamic of the classroom they're just not practical to execute. A teacher cannot devote 100% of his/her attention to one student. Hell, he/she is lucky if he can devote 10% to one single student, given the average class size is going between 25-30 kids.  

When it comes down to it, if it works in keeping the kids in line, which it often does, it should be used. People in the education field (i.e. people such as myself and Guchi_Jnr, who are actual teachers and who have atually faced situations like this) know what realistically works and what doesn't. As I said earlier, the theories are nice, but until they can be practically and realistically and effectively used in a real life classroom, they're not going to be taken seriously.


I'm not trying to be insulting but you do know that teachers on occasion molest or even murder their students. It is rare, yes, but it does prove that teachers are just another large group of humans. If you give a large group of humans the authority to beat people bad things will happen. It is just a matter of time. Anyway, I doubt this is going to go anywhere. At some point, a Japanese parent, teacher or politician is going to bring up the subject of liability and it will be dead in the water. If my child suffers a permanent injury because of an over-enthusiastic disciplinarian there isn’t enough money in the world sufficient to compensate me when I turn up with my lawyer and I am positive you would feel the same way about your kid. If having teachers in the schoolyard during breaks and persuasion is not enough to curb bullying you don't have a discipline issue, you have a police matter.

Offline chera

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Japan schools to rethink beating
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2007, 09:23:29 PM »
Quote from: Article
Since 1947, anything from punishing children by making them stand out in the hall to physically striking them is banned.


But wasn't that how Risako was punished: by making her stand in the hall with buckets of water?  How dare they!

[yt]QbK07Zwik94[/yt]

Offline djnvee

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Japan schools to rethink beating
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2007, 09:36:03 PM »
I still think physical abuse should be left by the parents. But still abuse is wrong as it can leave emotional scars and whatnot

Offline Daisuki Daiiyo

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Japan schools to rethink beating
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2007, 09:44:19 PM »
^ Abuse is such a cruel word. I think you mean "Disciplining" or "Whopping" should be left up to the parents. :P

Quote from: monkeyman;293964
I'm not trying to be insulting but you do know that teachers on occasion molest or even murder their students. It is rare, yes, but it does prove that teachers are just another large group of humans. If you give a large group of humans the authority to beat people bad things will happen. It is just a matter of time. Anyway, I doubt this is going to go anywhere. At some point, a Japanese parent, teacher or politician is going to bring up the subject of liability and it will be dead in the water. If my child suffers a permanent injury because of an over-enthusiastic disciplinarian there isn’t enough money in the world sufficient to compensate me when I turn up with my lawyer and I am positive you would feel the same way about your kid. If having teachers in the schoolyard during breaks and persuasion is not enough to curb bullying you don't have a discipline issue, you have a police matter.


But I think the kids, even if they did see the teachers in the schoolyard, still probably wouldn't behave anyway right? Because even if the teachers do see bullying, they can't do shit about it. They could probably stay "Stop" or "Don't do that" but that doesn't really work, and as far as I know, they're not allowed to step in at all.

It's as if you're assuming all humans are bad, and once they're given power they will abuse it. No matter what. And while that does happen, not everyone is a power-hungry bastard, there are good people out there. And surely those terds that do abuse their power, won't be allowed to have those priveledges any longer.

All a kid has to do is say that the teacher is doing things unecessarily that's all. The kids not gonna let the teacher and other kids just beat him and not tell his parents about it.

Offline JFC

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Japan schools to rethink beating
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2007, 09:58:06 PM »
Quote
I'm not trying to be insulting
Yeah, it's cool, we just happen to apparantly disagree on this issue, that's all. It makes for good, healthy discussion/debate. :)


Quote
but you do know that teachers on occasion molest or even murder their students. It is rare, yes, but it does prove that teachers are just another large group of humans.
You're making that statement on the assumption that the majority of teachers will react that way. The truth of the matter is that while cases like these are tragic and gross abuses of power, they do not constitute what happens with the majority of teachers.  You said it yourself...incidents like those only happen "on occaission", whereas teachers have to face what they face every day of the week during the school year.  Students are getting more and more bold and more and more defiant, yet teachers are continually "handcuffed" because they can't physically do anything to defend themselves or other students.


Quote
If having teachers in the schoolyard during breaks and persuasion is not enough to curb bullying you don't have a discipline issue, you have a police matter.
No offense, but that's just wishful thinking. You can't rely on the police to handle issues like this as they won't deem them as serious enough to warrant their presence there.  We teachers are left to fend for ourselves 99% of the time, unless someone tries to pull a "Columbine".

I actually have an anecdote for this, and yes, it really did happen. I personally know a teacher that I went to university with who had his nose broken by a 14-year old because he tried to stop a fight between this 14-year old and another student. The teacher had just separated the two of them and was holding the 14-year old back, when the 14-year old headbutted him in the face. The impact hit him square in the nose and partially drove part of his nose cartilage up into his brain. Now he can't teach because his short-term memory, speech, and fine motor control have been negatiely affected.  Legal action proved pointless/useless against the boy, as our justice system against young offenders is really lacking.  The worst part of it? The teacher was almost sued by the "family" (consisting of his mom and her BF, who 6 months prior happened to be under investigation themselves for apparent mail fraud) of the 14-year old because he "put his hands" on the kid. Now where's the justice in that?


Quote
If my child suffers a permanent injury because of an over-enthusiastic disciplinarian there isn’t enough money in the world sufficient to compensate me when I turn up with my lawyer and I am positive you would feel the same way about your kid.
As long as you, as a parent, do your best to be an active person in your kid's life and you take the time to explain and teach your kid/children good discipline or good behaviour and your kid/children actually follows what you as a parent teach them, then you have nothing to worry about.

I personally have always said and believed that the parents should be the ones who instill/teach their kids good discipline and good behaviour. When parents let their kids get away with everything at home, of course they're going to expect that the same thing will happen at school. More often than not this is indeed the case. Kids who are taught good discipline/behaviour at home naturally work and generally do better in situations outside the home. A lack of discipline at home invariably leads to problems at school and other situations outside the home.  

It is NOT the job of the teacher to teach good discipline/behavioural skills. OUR job is to teach the subject matter (i.e. Math/Science/English/History/etc.).  We are not there to be surrogate parents, yet often we're forced to be.  We are not supposed to be there to be disciplinarians, yet often we're forced to be.  All we want to do is teach the subject matter.

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Offline monkeyman

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Japan schools to rethink beating
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2007, 10:24:02 PM »
I'm curious, as you seem to feel that teachers or principals are to be trusted with the authority to beat children, would you also trust your school board to have the authority to punish teachers in a similar fashion or does it lose its appeal when the shoe is on the other foot? Surely, your school board wouldn't act arbitrarily when meting out corporal punishment to teachers. You are adults with thick hides so it shouldn't be a problem, right? Anyway, think how interesting contract negotiations could get. ;)

Offline chera

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Japan schools to rethink beating
« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2007, 11:39:58 PM »
Quote from: JFC;294016
I actually have an anecdote for this, and yes, it really did happen.... The impact hit him square in the nose and partially drove part of his nose cartilage up into his brain. Now he can't teach because his short-term memory, speech, and fine motor control have been negatiely affected.  


Damn... and I thought that this was just an urban legend.  In boxing and MMA, they teach that nose punches can stun you, but not that they can cause traumatic brain injury.  I thought that was the stuff of cheasy 80's kung fu movies.


I think the key principal behind the corporal punishment debate is in loco parentis.  This legal principle allows teachers to act in the best interests of their students, as if they were their students' legal guardians.  In return for taking responsibility over the welfare of their students, teachers also have the right to enforce arbitrary rules on those students - rules that would not be allowed in "normal society".  This has been the rationale for things such as locker searches, school uniforms, and yes... corporal punishment.  

In practice, corporal punishment in schools was allowed at a time when it was reasonable for parents to do the same.  But over the years, social attitudes have changed.  These days in many western countries at least, excessive spanking can get a parent into much trouble, as the line between parental discipline and abuse is a very hazy one.   Likewise, spanking of teenagers and very young children (I think 2 years old is the limit) can also get a parent into legal trouble.  The logic of forbidding it in school is clear: if a parent can't legally spank their child, then there is no place for a teacher to spank a student in the place of the parent.

Offline JFC

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Japan schools to rethink beating
« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2007, 12:44:04 AM »
Quote from: monkeyman;294037
I'm curious, as you seem to feel that teachers or principals are to be trusted with the authority to beat children, would you also trust your school board to have the authority to punish teachers in a similar fashion or does it lose its appeal when the shoe is on the other foot? Surely, your school board wouldn't act arbitrarily when meting out corporal punishment to teachers.
School boards are filled with "executives" who are dillusional enough to think they actually know what happens in a classroom. If they do have classroom experience, had it long ago and who have since lost touch with the changes that have happened in and the reality of the modern classroom dynamic. That being said, they're also often a bunch of image-conscious paper-pushers who would rather just fire a teacher than actually get their hands dirty and take some action. Even if they had the authority to do it, they probably wouldn't.

Quote from: monkeyman;294037
Anyway, think how interesting contract negotiations could get. ;)
Definitely. :lol:

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Offline maliciel

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Japan schools to rethink beating
« Reply #31 on: January 27, 2007, 01:34:44 AM »
I'm a firm believer in corporal punishment in school, as are my parents. I think 'spare the rod and spoil the child' applies. It's true kids spend more time in school than anywhere else, especially here in SG (which would be similar to that in Japan I suppose). Even if the teachers aren't supposed to teach kids how to behave, they sure as hell should be able to put kids in line.

Offline arun.yothin

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Japan schools to rethink beating
« Reply #32 on: January 27, 2007, 02:08:32 AM »
Quote from: chera;294074
Damn... and I thought that this was just an urban legend.  In boxing and MMA, they teach that nose punches can stun you, but not that they can cause traumatic brain injury.  I thought that was the stuff of cheasy 80's kung fu movies.
I've always heard that was legend, too. But I've also heard that shit can happen, but it's not like it will happen all the time.

As for hitting kids that are out of line(Whether it's the teacher or parent), it's not like every punishment is going to consist of the kid getting beat down until he/she can't stand up any more. They just need to get hurt enough so it's something they don't want. I got hit when I was I was a kid, but not that much. I don't have any scars or shit like that, but it hurt enough for me to not want to deal with it any more.

I don't know why schools bother with some forms of punishment like suspension or that shit with standing in the hall. Everyone I knew saw suspension as a joke. Punishing a kid who doesn't want to be in class by keeping him out of class doesn't do anything. None of the teachers I had would let you make up work you missed while out of class, but it's hard for your grade to take a big hit from being out just a week or two.

As long as the people doing the disciplining don't go overboard, it'll be fine. Part of the reason kids do so much fucked up stuff is because they know people won't do anything about it.

Offline JFC

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Japan schools to rethink beating
« Reply #33 on: January 27, 2007, 02:30:48 AM »
Quote from: arun.yothin;294233
I don't know why schools bother with some forms of punishment like suspension or that shit with standing in the hall. Everyone I knew saw suspension as a joke. Punishing a kid who doesn't want to be in class by keeping him out of class doesn't do anything.
Kids these days welcome suspensions. They often don't want to be in school in the first place, and as such they act out the way that they do in order to get suspensions so that they don't HAVE to go. Giving the kid a suspension lets the kid win because the kid gets away with misbehaving AND gets a little "vacation" from school as a prize.


Quote from: arun.yothin;294233
Part of the reason kids do so much fucked up stuff is because they know people won't do anything about it.
More precisely, the kids know that they'll get away with whatever it was they did because they know that the teachers CAN'T legally/physically do anything about it (which is the problem).

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Offline chera

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Japan schools to rethink beating
« Reply #34 on: January 27, 2007, 04:50:57 PM »
Quote from: arun.yothin;294233
I don't know why schools bother with some forms of punishment like suspension


Suspensions are really a last ditch move, aimed not to help the child but to prevent him from fucking up his classmates any more than he already has.

Offline bdash

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Japan schools to rethink beating
« Reply #35 on: January 27, 2007, 05:32:50 PM »
don't know if you guys lknow this but in the us a legislation is trying to make it  a punishable vrim for parents to spank kids

...
where did all the parenting go?

Offline browngom

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Japan schools to rethink beating
« Reply #36 on: January 30, 2007, 04:34:35 AM »
like Russel Peters always says "Parents, please beat your kids"

Offline JFC

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Japan schools to rethink beating
« Reply #37 on: January 30, 2007, 05:50:58 AM »
^ Russell's the man! :thumbsup

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Offline randomness

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Japan schools to rethink beating
« Reply #38 on: February 02, 2007, 10:58:00 AM »
hitting is going a bit extreme there... kind of relates to unethical punishment. i think its unnecessary and shouldn't be allowed

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