Seoul Calls On Japan To Compensate For Wartime Past

[jaasai]

Doesn't really matter if Japan apologizes again, or forks out even more money, cause as long as Japan is wealthy and the people here are living the good life, those countries are just going to keep bitching all the same.

Hell, perhaps Japan should throw some soccer games and let China win some next time.  I know that sounds a little off-topic, but shit, China threw a pissyfit when they lost against Japan awhile back, and it's because of the war that finished 60odd fuckin' years ago. GET OVER IT!!

It’s exactly that mentality that stirs this animosity towards the Japanese. The Japanese (at least those aware of the situation) have no one to blame but themselves for their strained relationship with China and Korea and if they refuse to publicly acknowledge what the Japanese in the past did was wrong, why expect the Chinese and the Korean to stop bringing it up. And I very much doubt the topic has anything to do with some soccer match.

In response to Japan’s apology, is it really genuine when the government continues to lie to their youth about what happened? Is it genuine when they continue to shun the actual victims looking for a simple apology? The lack of sufficient reparations, the subsequent denials, and this glorification of war criminal sure don’t reflect any of the apologies that they have given.
 
“It’s a shame when pride overlooks integrity.”
 

the problem is its not only japan hu is doing it, other countries do it too, look at china, i can personally say mao ze dong was the worst thing that ever came to china... his policies are down ryt failures and u dun see it in history buks in china... i mean other countries do it too... but in the end we jus have to move forward... we really dun have a choice... people should not  jus keep on blaming others and instead work with them to keep bad things like that from happening again...

Well I can really speak on this because I didn’t really pay that much attention in China’s history but based on what you’re saying about Mao Ze Dong and China, you are conceding to the point that Japan is doing the wrong thing but because another screwed up country is doing it, Japan is excused to do so as well?

Besides, from what you said, it sounds like an internal issue within China and as messed up as I sound, if the Chinese are willing to subject themselves to such a f'ed up government, they can only blame themselves (We know the rest of the world is). Japan’s issue on the other hand is an international issue. They aren’t screwing their own people over; they’re screwing the victims all over Asia over.

Look, if you can somehow persuade the people in China, Korea, etc to somehow move on and forgive the Japanese for raping and murdering their women and children 40-50 years ago then by all means, go for it.
And if you can do it without resorting to personal attacks or inane statements such as “get over it” which unfortunately some of the other people commenting are doing, then the better.

As for comments on the evil doings of the western countries, whose to say those issues aren’t being brought up. In American history, we learned that we did screw over the Native Americans and it was wrong. We also learned about the enslavement of African American and believe me when I say we learned our lesson that slavery was really wrong. The western countries have already acknowledged the wrongs they’ve committed and are paying for it everyday. If there are other countries doing screwed up crap like the Japanese government then yes, it should also be brought up. It’s up to those who know to bring it up and the victims of Japan’s war crimes are just doing that.

Like some of you guys said, most of the kids in Japan just aren’t being properly educated about what happened and this reactionary indifference toward the events and lack of acknowledgment to what happened is the reason this issue won’t die off.

I wish more people were as willing to forgive like my grandfather who became an orphan as a result of Japan’s action and I also wish I wasn’t looked down upon by my Chinese peers just because I don’t share the same hatred for the Japanese (current) but I can’t really see that happening because the Japanese government refuses to do anything about it.

:evil:
Jeeze, I need to stop typing so much. I already have two term papers due at the end of the week. Peace

[faraithi]

the problem is its not only japan hu is doing it, other countries do it too, look at china, i can personally say mao ze dong was the worst thing that ever came to china... his policies are down ryt failures and u dun see it in history buks in china... i mean other countries do it too... but in the end we jus have to move forward... we really dun have a choice... people should not jus keep on blaming others and instead work with them to keep bad things like that from happening again...

in agreement to thatguy, western people also did it its just that japan did it at a time when the world was at war... most europeans did a lot of horrible things back in the 15th-early 20th century (even more horrible than what japan did i.e. african slaves, genocide of Native Americans) that still reflect in the world today... but these things werent viewed as such because the written accounts are biased towards Europeans... my point is, y only focus on japan when there are countries that did far worse damage to humanity... furthermore, people should just move on from World War 2... there's a difference between remembering it and living it... keeping on blaming someone that happened way back will only bring about more animosity and can eventually lead to more wars in the future... haha but this is all IMO so no offense to people that may have been offended...

I agree.

Also, I'm inclined to the opinion that most of the world's major problems stem from Western/U.S./European Colonialism of the rest of the world; whereas there's no such thing as Eastern/Asian/African Colonialism. When Westerners first came to the East in big groups, they came to colonize, under the pretext of trade and commerce; whereas when Easterners (including Eastern Europeans) first came to the West in big groups, they came mainly because they wanted to escape from their sufferings in the East, and they did not come to colonize, but to voluntarily serve their Western masters in the West. I'm not sure about the Africans, but they probably suffered in one way or another under the hands of Westerners.

I'm not saying that Easterners and Africans are perfect because they also have their own internal problems within their own countries; but I'm saying that Westerners, in general, have no right, unless they have some truly divine command, to meddle in the affairs of the rest of the world, let alone whether they are qualified enough to try to help the East solve its problems. If Westerners wish to migrate to the East, they should "do as the Romans do" or at least try, just as Easterners, after they migrate to the West, also try to do the same.

As for post-WW2 Japanese foreign policy towards its East Asian neighbours, I highly suspect that it's most probably U.S. foreign policy since the Japanese government is well-known to be a lackey of the U.S. government. I wouldn't be surprised if the U.S. are using Japan, together with Taiwan, as a tool against China.

In any case, all of us here at JPH!P Forums are too powerless to do anything significant about such high-level politics; all we can do is to mind our own business, and if we ever need any entertainment to relieve our stress, we know where to get it, don't we?

[thatguy]

i'd be cautious about saying that mao was the worst thing to happen to china. in order to make an opinion about a historical figure, you need to keep in mind the conditions of the time that brought him to power... and given the conditions of the intrusion of the west into china (opium wars and before), and how the west severely manipulated the mainland for a monopoly over spice trade, uniting disparate regionalized chinese into one polity under nationalism was the correct thing to do.

of course, it's no secret that mao's communist policies don't translate very well to modern policy. it's my opinion that the biggest problem china faces is the fact that its simply too large. western states have subdivided governmental areas (the 50 states in america, provinces in other european countries, etc). sure china has regional provinces, but the age-old mentality of one-people and one-nation, which worked well for creating an identity against the west, is now no longer relevant.

i'd also be cautious about saying that japan and taiwan are pawns of the US government against china. the US has just as much an interest in maintaining relations with china as it does with japan and taiwan, which you should know to be an economic/labor interest. however, you can certainly make such a claim when it comes to human rights and living/working conditions. china is on such a fast track to becoming the economic powerhouse of the world that it's leaving behind issues of human rights. it's dangerous, because if the rest of the world begins to become dependant on chinese labor, we waive our ability to control human rights conditions. i think china knows this, and for better or worse, is willing to play this up to gain a better hold as a world power.

in any case, japan's policy towards war-crimes is still up for grabs. yes it's an international issue, but you'd be foolish to think that it wouldn't affect japan internally as well. plenty of people have likened japan to germany, but while it's easy to pinpoint hitler as being the mastermind behind german atrocities during the halocaust, it is very difficult to determine who exactly in japanese history is responsible for war-crimes.

VAWW-NET (an independant tribunal) indicted emperor hirohito a couple years ago, in concerning the rape and murder of women and children during japanese invasion/colonization of roughly a dozen countries. that's all well and said, but hirohito is dead, so how do you exact reparations? in a side note, during the tribunal, there were two japanese veterans that publicly testified their involvement in the raping of women during the war. so it's not the case that japanese are incapable of empathy, however...

victims of war crimes (those that are still living) demand a world in which their sufferings are publicly acknowledged, and they certainly have a right to that. but (and i think this illustrates it best), there's a difference between a government (ie: japan) providing charity, and asking for forgiveness. the real question is understanding when charity stops and asking for forgiveness begins. i still maintain that education is the answer.

as passionate as we all feel about this, we should all still just keep in mind that, since war-criminals are largely deceased now, responsibility lies with the government. don't let your criticisms of the government affect your relations with individuals. as easy as it may be to critisize someone's "misguided" views, nothing good will come out of deteriorating interpersonal relations.

[cephiro]

...
In American history, we learned that we did screw over the Native Americans and it was wrong. We also learned about the enslavement of African American and believe me when I say we learned our lesson that slavery was really wrong. The western countries have already acknowledged the wrongs they’ve committed and are paying for it everyday. If there are other countries doing screwed up crap like the Japanese government then yes, it should also be brought up. It’s up to those who know to bring it up and the victims of Japan’s war crimes are just doing that.

Like some of you guys said, most of the kids in Japan just aren’t being properly educated about what happened and this reactionary indifference toward the events and lack of acknowledgment to what happened is the reason this issue won’t die off.
...

well speaking of glorification of wrong doings. i consider the vietnam war as a wrong doing, but you know i haven't heard of an apology from the us government so far
you all know, that the veterans, of the vietnam war, are still highly glorified and i doubt, that the kids in school learn that the us government screwed it up and speaking of the victims, there are still enough victims suffering from napalm, "agent orange" and other dioxins

and the vietnam war just ended 30 years ago

[jkto]

but if japan did apologize and compensated for the past, do you guys think that will korea and china be satisfied? or will this give way to more demands from both of these countries?

[thatguy]

^ no. victims are looking for reparations of their own sufferings, not the villification of the japanese.

also, keep in mind that korea and china weren't the only countries. singapore, malaysia, the phillipines, east timor, etc...

[ytl]

but if japan did apologize and compensated for the past, do you guys think that will korea and china be satisfied? or will this give way to more demands from both of these countries?

This is where I don't understand.... where are all these incorrect perception come from.  China and other countries have signed a treaty not to demand for reparation.  All these China will demand more mindset is totally coming out from no where at all.  However, those victims truly deserve at least a geniune honest apology and reparation individually.  The damage from the war also killed and injured a number of people living at the Northern China when they dig out the hidden chemical weapons during construction.  

From Wiki:
when Japan normalized relations with Taiwan, Jiang Jieshi (or Chiang Kai-shek) waived reparations for the Second World War. Similarly, when Japan normalized relations with mainland China in 1972, Mao Zedong waived Japan’s reparations for WWII (see Article 5 of Sino-Japanese Joint Statement in 1972).

[anythursday]

The way I see it is until the Japanese government fully owns up to their soldiers past wrongdoings and stop omitting the history from their textbooks, I really have little sympathy if they’re find themselves being pressed by China, Korea, and apparently the US.
I'm more shocked that some people are suggesting that the past should be forgiven or forgotten so easily when you have so many young Japanese kids out there still wondering why the Chinese and the Korean hate their guts so much.


Believe me, they know. There are more then enough nationalists in each respective country out there to make sure of it. And also, it’s not long enough when it comes to your people being massacred, raped and murdered.
And what does the UN donation have anything to do with what the Japanese Soldiers did in the past. Does donating money to the UN suddenly absolve you of rape and murder, and subsequent denial? If the Japanese were truly sorry, why aren’t they compensating the oppressed victims instead and why are they still hiding the truth from the Japanese people?


Actually no, comparing the Japanese with the Germans is being too nice. The German actually admitted their past wrongdoing and openly condemn the Nazi and the whole neo nazi crap. The Japanese government is still covering up their history and some are even shamelessly glorifying the same people who were doing the murdering and the raping.

As for the Japanese just wanting to let the past remain in the past, that’s exactly the problem that I and I’m pretty sure many others have with the whole thing. Why should they be allowed to so easily modify the history to their liking and let their wrong doings slide? How would you feel if the Germans started glorify Hitler and modifying their history books with “Hitler was a hero”?
The reason you don’t hear as many Europeans bringing up the Holocaust is because Germany has made it clear that they are sorry for what the Nazis did and made sure everyone knew about their past wrong doings. Not something the Japanese can say.

I do agree with you though that some of the Chinese (can’t speak for the Koreans) are being serious asses about the whole problem. Rather then sticking to the main issue, they’re condemning anything and anyone that even relates to the Japanese and the culture. I actually got into numerous arguments about the same issue and it ended with me being threaten of my life. (Good luck assholes) But then again, I can’t really blame them when the Japanese are fueling their anger with their denials.


I don’t think they’re asking the Japanese people individually to apologize for what happened but rather more a call to raise awareness to their people. "It’s through history that we learn to rectify our wrong doings and to ensure history never repeats." (Some clumped up quote I remember hearing) The Japanese are the ones being unreasonable.

I'm very impressed at everything you wrote - your thoughts are my thoughts exactly. Although the Japanese government did issue a statement of apology, they have repeatedly rejected wartime brutality cases that have been submitted by victims of for instance, Nanjing Massacre, the sexually abused "comfort women," and various other situations. The Japanese rejected the cases on the basis that the "statue of limitation" has expired.

The Germans on the other hand removed the immunity under the statue of limitations for Nazi War Crimes. Germany has paid some $60 billion.

[testype01]

wow, I wanted to drop a commentary in this thread, but reading the whole thing made me realize that I know so little about this subject. The level of the disscussion is now too high for me, since I'm just from south america. We didn't even fougth in WW 2.

[xtree]

it's not gonna happen imo, japan and korea are like cats and dogs
natural enemies

even japanese and korean americans hate each other for no apparent reason
(i'm not sayin all of them, b/c i have seen them as friends as well)

[danxshin]

unfortunately this is japan. the majority of its leaders have defied admitting anything wrong even happened to begin with. and i don't see anybody making an apology anytime soon in the future.

[DaiShuryou]

I would be surprised if a good portion of the populations in these countries still hates Germans to do this day because of their history. So really, I don't think anything is wrong with what Japan is doing.

Okay than I have to surprise you ^^
There are enough people who still hate us Germans. Especially the people in Germany. Most of them live in Germany, because we have this shitty social system where every stupid asshole can earn money from the German state. Thanks to that, Germany is really attractive for foreigners, especially muslim people.
But many foreigners (especially the muslim people and that is really the truth) have no respect towards the Germans. When a German says "Hey, this is not allowed" they answer with things like "You Nazi" and then the German is silent because he don't want to get titled as a Nazi.
I can't speak for the countries france, poland etc. themselves, but the people from their countries who live in Germany still hate us. Not all, but enough of them and they show it.
Just a little correction ^^

[STMY]

Actually, legally speaking, Japan owes Korea and Koreans absolutely zero.  The US supported military dictatorships signed away those rights in return for Japanese ODA (Overseas Development Aid, IIRC).  Japan has also poured in enormous sums in ODA into China.  Many Japanese see current cries for compensation as simple blackmail for more money.  The rallies, demonstrations, etc. are more about domestic politics than anything else (look at those evil Japanese (and don't look at domestic problems, my sinking popularity, etc. etc.)).  And Japan has apologized a lot.  I think the latest count was around 30.  Koizumi's apology a couple years back was pretty much as much as anyone could expect.  The Chinese response (which had been, Japan must apologize) instantly switched to 'apologies don't matter, it's actions that matter.'  Hmmm...quick switch there. 

Does Japan need to be more frank about it's own history?  Absolutely.  So does every other country in the world.  Memorializing the country's dead should take place at the Showa Peace Park (I think that's the right name) rather than Yasukuni Shrine.  Division of religion and state, and Yasukuni is a private organization, not a public run one.  Not to mention Yasukuni's ludicrous 'history' museum.

Has anyone ever looked at the Chinese and SKorean textbooks?  They're 100x worse than Japan's in terms of promoting nationalism and leaving out things or distorting history.  It's hypocrisy galore for them to be complaining about Japan's textbooks.

[maliciel]

Hypocrisy aside, it's a legitimate gripe.

[thatguy]

yeah but the difference with japan is that yasukuni shrine is, in all technicality, separate from government. china's government (and i imagine korea's, though i don't know their specifics) can push propoganda into textbooks all they'd like, but the exertion of influence is direct from the government. yasukuni shrine isn't for the memorialization of soldiers, it's for their deification (it's a shrine after all, not a temple). it's a strict correlation to a religion that predates by far the current state of the government, and reaches much deeper into the minds (of people who support yasukuni). in this regard, it's not a governmental party, or even the government (which come and go), that needs reformation, but an entire mentality and conceptualization of deified beings which is embodied within japanese shintoism.

there's nothing wrong with shintoism, but the ways in which japanese have deified historical figures in the past has been with regard to internal conflicts (civil wars of sorts, if you will), focused largely on class struggles. it's in this (particularly extensive) case that the warfare focuses on "discrimination" (by what psychological method, such as a superiority complex or unfounded fear, is up to debate). you can imagine that the current deification makes it seem as if japanese superiority is somehow empirical. in my opinion, there needs to be a understanding on the difference between memorialization and deification, and that lack of the latter doesn't make any lesser of the former.

-edit-
re-reading this, i digress from my point: we'd ideally like them to all get along, and to this end there will need to be reformation of each of the countries (or at least their attitudes). but while governments and polities can evolve, religion seldom does, and it's in this regard that china and korea have legitimacy in their complaints. the problem isn't that japan memorializes the decased; it's precisely that they don't, but instead enshrine them. when you treat your deceased as gods, you leave no room to criticize their actions, since everything they died for was good and correct and for the country's sake--their humanity and their actions are one in the same. but with a memorial, you remember their humanity (life), but separate it from their actions, which then allows you to judge the actions separately without demeaning the sacrifice of their lives. again, there's nothing wrong with shintoism, but shintoism isn't about handling international political affairs, and in this regard japan needs to understand the difference between memorialization and deification.

[STMY]

thatguy, I think you'd be hard pressed to find many Japanese that would consider the souls enshrined in Yasukuni to be gods.  Translating "kami" as god in any Western sense of the word is very problematic.  When even most of the right wing loonies go to Yasukuni, they aren't worshiping those spirits, they're paying their respects to them.  I think that's something the Chinese and Koreans don't understand. 

However, official paying of respects for Japanese war dead shouldn't be at Yasukuni.  There's a perfectly good memorial that the committee set up by right winger (former Prime Minister) Nakasone recommended using.  That's where it should be done.

[thatguy]

that's exactly the point. regardless of how japanese view how they respect their deceased, the fact that it's a shrine sends mixed messages to those who don't understand, namely chinese and koreans. the point isn't that japanese /actually/ deify the soldiers (although there are many other shinto shrines that do this, such as with hideyoshi & co.), but that other people believe that they are.

[ytl]

Say all what you delusional ppl want to believe.  It still doesn't justify anything they have done since the WWII. 
By the way, here is the new documents released from National Diet Library that the gov't carefully planned the smuggling of those war-crime into Yasukuni years before they actually did secretly. 
http://www.japantoday.com/jp/news/402125

[Guchi_Jnr]

Prime Minister Shinzo Abe, in an interview with the U.S. magazine Newsweek, repeated his apology for Japan forcing foreign women into wartime sexual servitude, according to a government official.

"As Japan's prime minister, I am extremely sorry that they were made to endure such pain. We feel responsible over the situation in which the women had to exist as 'comfort women' and endure such hardship," Abe told Newsweek ahead of his trip to the U.S. starting Thursday, his first since taking power in September.

"We must always be humble (in dealing with) our history and constantly give profound thought on our responsibility," he said, reiterating his government's position to stand by a 1993 statement by then Chief Cabinet Secretary Yohei Kono that acknowledged and apologized for the military's involvement in coercing the women into sexual slavery.

Abe's U.S. trip comes amid rising global attention to the issue as the U.S. Congress debates a resolution demanding that Japan apologize to the women. Abe drew flak, especially from foreign media, when he said recently there are no documents to prove the Japanese military physically coerced women to provide sex for its soldiers during World War II, citing a government position paper.

In another interview with the Wall Street Journal, Abe stressed there is a need for Japan to secure a solid defense capability and strengthen the Japan-U.S. bilateral alliance in light of China's growing military power.

Abe, in both interviews conducted Tuesday in Tokyo, underscored the importance of strengthening the "unwavering" Japan-U.S. bilateral alliance as extremely valuable for not only security in East Asia but the world as a whole.

He stressed his idea of promoting research on exercising the right of collective defense, which is banned in line with the government's interpretation of the pacifist Constitution, the official said.

Abe said the changing security environment for Japan and the world calls on Japan to contribute to global challenges.

[StreakInTheSky]

Say all what you delusional ppl want to believe.  It still doesn't justify anything they have done since the WWII. 
By the way, here is the new documents released from National Diet Library that the gov't carefully planned the smuggling of those war-crime into Yasukuni years before they actually did secretly. 
http://www.japantoday.com/jp/news/402125

lol @ delusional comment.

I'm not gonna get into this one.