[News] Two Chinese Girls To MORNING MUSUME!

[reyfer]

Watching the announcement clip from H!M, the reactions from the MM girls were like:
"Oh God, what is this? Is Tsunku-san graduating me?.....Good, I'm not graduating, it's about new members....wait....chinese?.....cool"

[kingthaking81]

Watching the announcement clip from H!M, the reactions from the MM girls were like:
"Oh God, what is this? Is Tsunku-san graduating me?.....Good, I'm not graduating, it's about new members....wait....chinese?.....cool"

ya , there were definitely some troubled faces~ only koha remained in the same expression after the anouncement

[shirenuファクトリー]

Last year, around the same time as the 8th generation auditions were taking place here in Japan, Junjun was taking part in an audition in Beijing, and Linlin became an exchange student with the Hello! Project Eggs

She's been here longer than since January according to Tsunku-P o_o So if you have some other info, Tsunku-P is giving two different pieces of info -_-


But I don't think it will take 2-3 years for Junjun to learn to say "anything remotely smart", I started studying Japanese at age 19 and it's not that hard if you just aren't lazy. In Norway where teaching is much faster, they've learned everything in 1 year what it takes 2 years to learn here. Which slightly annoys me, but anyway. If you take the Norway's teaching speed + actually living and actively communicating with people in Japan, maybe you learn the same things as fast as in 6 months. And after a year you should be able to say "remotely smart things"... Well who knows, but dear lord, if it takes 2-3 years to learn to say "anything remotely smart" even if you're actually in Japan, every day talking to Japanese people - damn, I might as well shoot myself in the head and give up on languages altogether.

:MKdigger:

[reyfer]

She's been here longer than since January according to Tsunku-P o_o So if you have some other info, Tsunku-P is giving two different pieces of info -_-

Still, it is 6 months max, so mpz's statement that 2-3 years would be needed for saying "anything remotely smart" is proven wrong anyway. Not only that, using Pimsleur's japanese course, I had my first broken but understandable spoken conversation with a japanese person today, exactly one and a half months after starting the course (it is three levels, 30 lessons each level, doing one lesson a day, and there is no written material, it is only to learn to speak japanese)

By the way, anybody interested in it, PM me for a torrent link for the Pimsleur course (the course is great, but it is 250 US $ each level)

[mpz]

But I don't think it will take 2-3 years for Junjun to learn to say "anything remotely smart", I started studying Japanese at age 19 and it's not that hard if you just aren't lazy. In Norway where teaching is much faster, they've learned everything in 1 year what it takes 2 years to learn here. Which slightly annoys me, but anyway. If you take the Norway's teaching speed + actually living and actively communicating with people in Japan, maybe you learn the same things as fast as in 6 months. And after a year you should be able to say "remotely smart things"... Well who knows, but dear lord, if it takes 2-3 years to learn to say "anything remotely smart" even if you're actually in Japan, every day talking to Japanese people - damn, I might as well shoot myself in the head and give up on languages altogether.

Maybe it's just my perfectionism talking. I *hate* speaking when I know my skills aren't up to the task and I'd just produce broken output. If you aren't ashamed of it like I am, then of course you can be up and walking and talking much sooner, but that doesn't change the fact that your Japanese or whatever will be seriously broken for years to come.

How long it takes also depends a lot on the teacher. There are competent and not so competent teachers even in Japan. Just because they are Japanese, doesn't mean that they are the absolutely best choice to teach a foreigner the language (at least until a certain point is reached where the learner becomes adept enough to understand explanations in Japanese and so on). Of course I'm sure they'll get the best teachers.. or at least I'm hoping that :-) but the risk of no progress is there. I don't know why the English speaking members of Coconuts (besides Mika, who was already quite good when she joined) never made any progress with Japanese - didn't they have enough time or what? Or maybe they lacked the ambition.

Of course there are linguistic geniuses who can pick up languages in a year or two (and I'm not talking some easy cases like learning German when you know Swedish, they're the same language family after all), but nothing currently indicates that that's the case.

Yeah, languages r teh interesting.

[RionZ]

I don't get why people feel need that JunJun needs to know Japanese immediately.  I mean, its not like she immediately knew she was gonna be in Morning Musume.  Why prepare for something that you are unaware of?

Go easy on her people, and look at the japanese music industry and the many foreign artists who have become successful there.  If anything, MM just got a sales boost right now (adding some of the chinese speaking population) as well as a media boost.  Also probably making Yossui's grad a potential milestone in H!P/MM history.

[mpz]

Still, it is 6 months max, so mpz's statement that 2-3 years would be needed for saying "anything remotely smart" is proven wrong anyway.

Is it? I'm not talking about self-introductions or ordering food. I'm talking the level you're going to need to be able to not only follow the fast-paced dodgeball of talk shows but also to counter whatever's thrown at you. Like I said before, Morning Musume is much more than just singing.

Not only that, using Pimsleur's japanese course, I had my first broken but understandable spoken conversation with a japanese person today, exactly one and a half months after starting the course (it is three levels, 30 lessons each level, doing one lesson a day, and there is no written material, it is only to learn to speak japanese)

Let it be known that there is no magic bullet to language acquisition. There are a lot of snake oil sellers though; while the methods themselves are rarely if ever harmful, the marketing speak *is*. It gives you false hope. You won't learn to read 2000 kanji in 14 days, nor will you be able to speak Japanese by listening to three 15 hour audio tape series (And by speak I mean discussing things at an intelligent level..).


Edit: I know this sounds incredibly pessimistic, but it's my pragmatism speaking. I wish nothing but good for the recruits. It's just that I have walked the same road.. I *have* put my money where my mouth is (was) and learned the language. And you have got to be hallucinating if you don't think it's going to require a lot of effort regardless of the environment :-)

[reyfer]

Is it? I'm not talking about self-introductions or ordering food. I'm talking the level you're going to need to be able to not only follow the fast-paced dodgeball of talk shows but also to counter whatever's thrown at you. Like I said before, Morning Musume is much more than just singing.


Let it be known that there is no magic bullet to language acquisition. There are a lot of snake oil sellers though; while the methods themselves are rarely if ever harmful, the marketing speak *is*. It gives you false hope. You won't learn to read 2000 kanji in 14 days, nor will you be able to speak Japanese by listening to three 15 hour audio tape series (And by speak I mean discussing things at an intelligent level..).

Sorry, I speak English, Italian, Spanish (my mother tongue), French, can read Russian and Greek, and all on my own, and I am having a slow but fluid conversation with an employee of the japanese embassy right now, so where the snake oil there?

[mpz]

Sorry, I speak English, Italian, Spanish (my mother tongue), French, can read Russian and Greek, and all on my own, and I am having a slow but fluid conversation with an employee of the japanese embassy right now, so where the snake oil there?

Slow does not equal fluid in my vocabulary. Please do keep studying it though; Japanese is an incredibly rewarding language once you crack it.

And I do believe I already brought up the point that learning a bunch of Indo-European languages is not that difficult at all, even moreso if one of them is your mother tongue.

[yokoso]

Completely off-topic but I speak two languages fluently but have never been able to learn a European language.. at all.  Even after many years of trying.  I don't know about anyone else, but it ain't easy for me.

[mpz]

Completely off-topic but I speak two languages fluently but have never been able to learn a European language.. at all.  Even after many years of trying.  I don't know about anyone else, but it ain't easy for me.

You're speaking English. English is an Indo-European language.

...

Yeah, I know you meant the others :-p

[reyfer]

And I do believe I already brought up the point that learning a bunch of Indo-European languages is not that difficult at all, even moreso if one of them is your mother tongue.

Okay, I want to see you learning, let's say, Spanish, I'll give you six months (that's the amount of time it took me to learn Italian) and then tell me how easy it is.

Another thing is, just because it was difficult to you or easy to you, doesn't mean that it will be difficult for them. And did you learn the language in Japan? I'm not saying it will be easy, but as I said no matter if you have a lousy teacher, being surrounded by the language helps you speed the process.

[Celedam]

Do we need to break out the rulers to settle this?

[mpz]

Okay, I want to see you learning, let's say, Spanish, I'll give you six months (that's the amount of time it took me to learn Italian) and then tell me how easy it is.

Let's not forget that your starting point to learn Italian was Spanish which makes it all the more easier. My native language is not Indo-European, alas.

Given six months of full-time round the clock study and sufficient motivation I think I could do it though. Conveniently right now I have neither :-)

Another thing is, just because it was difficult to you or easy to you, doesn't mean that it will be difficult for them. And did you learn the language in Japan? I'm not saying it will be easy, but as I said no matter if you have a lousy teacher, being surrounded by the language helps you speed the process.

Nope, I didn't learn it in Japan. However, thanks to the Internet it's pretty easy to build an environment where you *are* surrounded by it, in other words hear the language daily and that works for osmosis almost as well as living in the country (ten years ago this would have been unthinkable, so a big thumbs up to whoever invented Internet). The only problem is that you don't really get to practice speaking with natives, but I don't think that has been too much of a problem. Like I said up there, I'm not the type that even wants to practice speaking until I'm pretty confident about it.

Still, I don't wish to antagonize anybody in here. I'm just concerned about the girls, that's all. I really hope it works out, but at the same time am afraid it won't. Only time will tell.

One can argue that Coconuts was just mismanaged (and it's a valid argument since it was managed by Makoto, not Tsunku), but I can't help but feel that it was partly because talk show hosts couldn't really handle people who couldn't follow the quick & witty talking. Look at old Asayan episodes where Coconuts appear. The non-Japanese speaking members were basically deadweights in a situation like that, degenerated into being the target of Okamura's "sexyyyy" hoots. Mika did her best to interpret, but even if you're natively bilingual it's not humanly possible to translate all the puns they throw at you in realtime. Attaching a special interpreter for the girls for the purpose of talk shows kind of breaks the normal flow of the quick back-and-forth chat between the guests and the hosts that is so common in programs like that.

I am certainly looking forward to seeing what happens :-)

[Asmodai]

MM is a bigger group though. They'll need to learn, but the other members will be able to cover more than with Coconuts.

[reyfer]

Let's not forget that your starting point to learn Italian was Spanish which makes it all the more easier. My native language is not Indo-European, alas.

Given six months of full-time round the clock study and sufficient motivation I think I could do it though.:-)

Same situation these girls are in. And I know you mean no wrong to them or anybody here, but just as you were defending your point, I was defending mine. You say that even if your native language is not an Indo-European one, if you have "round the clock study and sufficient motivation" you can learn an Indo-European language in six months, and still cannot accept the fact that these girls, who will have round the clock study and have the perfect motivation, can learn japanese in less that 1 year?

Anyway, we both want the best for the girls, I guess I'm just a little more positive than some others.

[ferrar1]

I think we should just leave the worrying of how the girls can communicate to the management of UFA and just sit back and wait to enjoy their 1st appearance on stage.

That being said, Qian Lin is cute and getting cuter with every look and pictures that i find.

[mpz]

You say that even if your native language is not an Indo-European one, if you have "round the clock study and sufficient motivation" you can learn an Indo-European language in six months, and still cannot accept the fact that these girls, who will have round the clock study and have the perfect motivation, can learn japanese in less that 1 year?

It would be easier for me because I'm already fluent in English and studied quite a bit of Swedish and some French in my time (but I would never claim to speak the latter two, simply because I'm not good enough at them).

And I doubt they will be able to have round-the-clock studies since there's so much else they have to do (assuming they're treated the same as full members and participate in all the normal work).

Anyway, we both want the best for the girls, I guess I'm just a little more positive than some others.

I agree, let's leave it at that. :-)

I like talking about languages almost as much as I like actually learning them ;-)

[iachu]

I think we should just leave the worrying of how the girls can communicate to the management of UFA and just sit back and wait to enjoy their 1st appearance on stage.

That being said, Qian Lin is cute and getting cuter with every look and pictures that i find.

Yeah, I agree.  I am sure by the time they make their debut they will be competent speakers of Japanese.  Don't worry!

[mpz]

Yeah, I agree.  I am sure by the time they make their debut they will be competent speakers of Japanese.  Don't worry!

I was going to drop the subject already, but.. Mind if I revisit this statement when they actually debut..? It doesn't have an inkling of realism.

Unless they're going to be held back for a year or two before debuting, but that's not very likely.