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Author Topic: E-sports : A rant  (Read 4675 times)

Offline Tuffty

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E-sports : A rant
« on: January 01, 2008, 05:50:22 PM »
This is something that's been brought to my attention fairly recently. For our American friends, a channel was launched on UK digital TV not too long ago called XLeague.tv. A fairly low budget station dedicated to games, well largely, afternoon and late hour slots are bizarrely taken up with shows like 'Ice Racing' 'Paintballing' and 'Bikini Chick Fight', but that's besides the point. Their mission statement is along the lines of 'dedicated to bringing the best in e-sport' with tv slots bringing matches between clans for Halo, Gears of War etc all usually for cash prizes as a result. Which I thought, fair enough if you're into that sort of thing, I personally don't want to see random clans go under the guise of 'athleticism' or 'competition' for money. But watching it actually made me realise, my God they're serious? Then I listen to quotes and I hear the ridiculous comment of 'I can genuinely see e-sports making it's way into the Olympic games'.

What? I'm not some grand-dad and I like to think I have an open mind about things, but surely they're pulling a leg here? There is no actual level of fitness or athleticism required for playing Counter-strike (and if you've seen the contestants, that is most definately the case) so how in the hell can it make it's way to the Olympic games?! How can it compare to actual sports? What makes them think it would be even successful beyond the niche market there is in spectating it already? As a fairly dedicated gamer myself, I can honestly say that e-sport in no way excites or motivates me. How can I support an 'athlete' when they have names like 'BlOoDbAtH1972'? On that note, the commentators list the gamers profiles, like name, age, occupation (largely student) fav game etc, then they list their weekly hours of game time, and it's not uncommon to hear 50 hrs a week! 50?! So for a 15 yr old student, we'll say he takes 7hrs a day? So that's literally when he comes home, he plays non-stop until 11pm? I'm sorry but that is just, for lack of a better word, sad. Have they not got anything else in their lives to be following? A proper job for example? And what about the pay? As far as I'm aware pro e-sport players fight it out for the top cash prize, I don't know if there are any runner-up rewards, so if you're a full time pro, you have to risk getting paid? That's just silly.

Anyway, if anyone agrees with me or can even talk me through the attraction behind it and why it's even being seriously regarded as a sport on par with football, please feel free to let me know.

Offline Asmodai

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Re: E-sports : A rant
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2008, 05:59:35 PM »
It's laughable. No one but the most blind promoters can realistically see it in the Olympic Games anymore than Chess, Scrabble or Poker. They're games, but they're not sports.

Offline LaJon

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Re: E-sports : A rant
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2008, 06:13:37 PM »
I've been in the FPS gaming scene for eons now, and I've seen games slowly transform from something that people play for fun to this grotesque "e-sports" that has sucked most of the joy out of the games.  When I first started playing Counter-strike, it wasn't a mission for me to become the best player in the world and come up with strategies for all the maps and spend hours per day working on my aim.  When I got home from school, I'd punch up my favorite pub server and just play for fun.  Even when I joined a clan, and we went into leagues, it was still a matter of fun.  We didn't spend all night scrimming to perfect teamwork or play against a each other on aim maps to make sure we got nothing but head shots.  Even the best players in the world played for the love of the game and not for a paycheck.  Over the years the game has become slow, dull, and more random than I can stand.  I can't even stand to watch top matches anymore because of how boring it's become.  How can you call it a sport when one bullet can kill you, bullets rarely land where you aim, and bullets can go through most walls and objects?  How can you call most of any video games a sport when you're simply controlling a fictional character and there's so much out of your control?  Give me a break.  Top basketball or football players have been at it for their entire life's, but you can become one of the best players in a video game within a few months to a year if you worked at it. 'Nuff said.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2008, 06:16:42 PM by LaJon »

Offline Fracture

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Re: E-sports : A rant
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2008, 06:43:17 PM »
Good post.

It's less of a sport than curling, this is true, then again this isn't the first time the idea of "cyberathletes" has come up, in fact they have their own "professional league".  Of course "athlete" in this case is a complete misnomer but they like it because they feel it finally puts them on even footing with the jocks that used to laugh at them in gym class because they couldn't do a single pull-up.

It's absurd that people would ever try to compare it to "real" sports, considering the only real prerequisites are a steady hand and the ability to communicate entirely in leetspeak.  I don't think this is the sort of thing the ancient founders of the Olympic games had in mind at the time, of course the world is very different now but if we're going to start awarding medals to people that literally never have to stand up for their "sport" then I deserve a medal for posting on internet forums.

Above all, I must on principle object to any notion that may lead to the classification of Mountain Dew as a "sports drink".

Offline arun.yothin

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Re: E-sports : A rant
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2008, 08:22:46 PM »
The use of words like "athlete" and "sport" is kinda bad, but I think's it silly to get so work up about that. Trying to get video games in the Olympics is dumb, but a lot of sports already in the Olympics are dumb.

The gamers are in nowhere near the shape the athletes are, but their love for their game is the same. So many people think that playing to win means you can't have fun. They get their ass handed to them by a serious player and it's, "Well so what? I just play to have fun." They may not enjoy actually learning all about the game and trying to win. Their game is very simple, but that's perfectly fine. They want fun and they're having it. Competitive players are having fun too, it's just a different kind. They would have more fun learning more strategies which could open up the game for more possibilities. This is the same as an athlete who spends time honing his or her skills to become better. There's not much of a difference between the "real" athletes and "cyber" athletes. They enjoy their games enough to go deeper and deeper into them.

Quote from: LaJon
How can you call most of any video games a sport when you're simply controlling a fictional character and there's so much out of your control?
Being character on screen doesn't mean anything. Things are in your control. The character moves where you tell it to and attacks and defends when you want it to. This is why you learn the game. You already know what you want to do in a given situation, knowing how the game works will allow to do that. Same as an athlete making any adjustments for things like weather. He/she knows how a ball travels when wind is involved, so they compensate for it.

I don't know what exactly these guys are doing in their lives. If playing games are the only things that make them happy, there's nothing wrong with just doing that. Just like some can't understand how gamers can play games all day, others don't get how athletes can run and lift weights all day. Shit, I'm one of 'em. I wouldn't be surprised if the stats and all the pre-game smack talk was just bullshit to hype the show. The promoters probably don't care to show anything other than the gaming aspect of their lives since it may make them seem like they're not "hardcore". I've met lots of guys in the fighting game scene who have lots of other stuff going on in their lives. They love the game and play damn near everyday, but they still have school, jobs, and even girl/boy friends. There are athletes who only do their sport. They have no jobs, get shitty grades in school, but he's a not a loser because he's the starting tight end! :roll:

David Sirlin, game designer and competitive player in fighting games, wrote a book about competitive gaming called Playing to Win which is free here: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/

Offline LaJon

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Re: E-sports : A rant
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2008, 09:53:53 PM »
Quote from: LaJon
How can you call most of any video games a sport when you're simply controlling a fictional character and there's so much out of your control?
Being character on screen doesn't mean anything. Things are in your control. The character moves where you tell it to and attacks and defends when you want it to. This is why you learn the game. You already know what you want to do in a given situation, knowing how the game works will allow to do that. Same as an athlete making any adjustments for things like weather. He/she knows how a ball travels when wind is involved, so they compensate for it.

You misunderstand.  My qualm with high-end competitive gaming is that you can only do so much with the skill and experience you have.  You have control, but only to a point.  For instance, if I were to duel against someone in World of Warcraft who bad better gear than me, I would probably lose even if I'm the more skilled player.  Classes have weakness and strengths vs certain other classes regardless of how much you know and what your experience is.  Your hits might miss, be dodged, or be parried while the other go goes on a string of crits.  It's out of your hands.  Even still, if I aim on someone's head at point-blank range in Counter-strike, and press the button on my mouse to make him shoot, and the bullet doesn't hit because the game decides that it didn't land on the hit box because of the way he's standing, then how much control can you say you really have?  Can you imagine if that was the last kill your team needed to win the finals of a big tournament?

Offline Fracture

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Re: E-sports : A rant
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2008, 11:09:14 PM »
arun, I get what you're saying about gamers and athletes sharing the same drive, my hangup is that I think it takes more than that to elevate an activity to the level of an Olympic sport.  It's not that I think pro gamers don't deserve some kind of recognition for all the hours they spend perfecting their shit, I just don't think they should be recognized in the same venue as marathoners.  I dunno, maybe that's rigid thinking, or maybe I'm stumbling over semantics, but I can't help feeling that the term "athlete" implies something else entirely.

Although by my standards a lot of things recognized by the Olympic committee don't belong there, so what do I know :P

One other thing I'd add is that I don't like the idea of bringing private ownership of sports into the Olympics.  You can't say that any one person "owns" tennis or wrestling, but you can bet your ass that Blizzard owns Starcraft :lol:  They have complete control over the game which means it has to be licensed and kind of corrupts the purity of it all, plus there are some rather unprecedented problems that go along with it.  The whole thing just seems unrealistic to me.

Offline arun.yothin

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Re: E-sports : A rant
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2008, 11:30:13 PM »
^I don't think gamers are in the same league as athletes either. I think more people are upset over the words being used. Just because they say "sport" and "athlete" everyone thinks physical (What about golf and fishing?). I wouldn't put an Olympic gold medal winner on the same level as a Starcraft world champion, but that's because they are two different things that require different skills. There are other words that could be used, but I think the promoters use the words those to make it sound cool. They think that by promoting it as being similar to "real" sports, then more people will get interested.


In response to LaJon's post:
Correct me if I'm wrong in this, I don't play WoW.

WoW is different because the stats of the character change with things like items and growth. From what I've read, there's not much skill required. Do you actually press a button for each attack, parry or block? Or does it occur "randomly" based on your stats? If everything is done for you, then you can't expect too much in the way of competition.

In fighting games, the characters are always the same. You can't make anyone stronger or give them new moves. Well made characters are balanced between things like strength, speed, combo potential, and other aspects. Some characters have no combos and are slow but can deal a lot of damage easily while some don't do a lot of damage but have the speed to move in and out easily. No character is good at everything. There is always another character that has something to beat what they have (Kinda like Rock Paper Scissors).

Things aren't as automatic in fighting games. Every step, jump, kick, block, etc is done when you put in the command as long as you're in a state that allows is (Not getting hit, in the air, etc). Your character doesn't just miss or randomly get a critical hit because their stats. Winning is more dependent on the player, not his/her character. The winner knows what to do, when to do it, and how to do it. The characters in the game aren’t strong just because of their moves, power, etc (It is just a piece), they’re because the people playing them know how to use the strengths and down play the weaknesses.

A skilled player using a character considered weak can beat someone playing someone strong if he knows what to do and what to avoid. Sean is considered one of the weakest characters in SFIII Third Strike, but that didn’t stop some kid from beating me and my friends who used some of the strongest characters in the game. He didn’t win because Sean is stronger than everyone else or because he got lucky and landed some random critical hits; he won because he knew exactly how to play as Sean. He knew what to do and what not to do in order to win.

In the case of Counter-Strike, other games have situations where things like that happen. I've seen fireballs and even other strikes whiff at close range just the same as your head shot. In some cases, it may actually be that that fireball will never hit because the move being done by the opponent allows him to pass through the fireball or maybe the fireball or strike isn't active until it's at a distance that may be passed the opponent If it's a consistent thing like this, then you learn that doing that at close range may not be a good idea. Back to CS, it depends if it's random or not. Maybe you were too close for the bullet to actually pass through the hit box or maybe it's just a glitch. If the game is designed in a way that the bullet will never hit at that close of a distance, then you compensate for hit. If this is a common occurrence that brings down the game, the players can adjust their game so it's doesn't matter or the developers and fix the problem(s). The developers making adjustments is part of why there were 4 other versions of Street Fighter II before SFIII was made.

Offline Masabi

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Re: E-sports : A rant
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2008, 01:01:21 AM »
Well, this is the same reason I really hate clans.  I think they take it way too seriously.  Yes, I get frustrated when I lose.  But I don't see it so seriously as they do.  I think it's laughable to think that it would ever be an Olympic sport and hell, I do not want to see it as that.  But I don't know why you're hating on people who spend hours a day on games?  It's something they enjoy.  I'd rather have people be enjoying themselves playing games than out doing something destructive anywho.

@lajon:  You assume that all the games they're talking about are MMORPGs.  In games like Gears of War, everything is level and on par-- no one gets the advantage right at the beginning.  Sure, you can go pick up different weapons but everything is openly available therefore it's definitely fair. 
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Offline LaJon

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Re: E-sports : A rant
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2008, 01:12:27 AM »
@lajon:  You assume that all the games they're talking about are MMORPGs.  In games like Gears of War, everything is level and on par-- no one gets the advantage right at the beginning.  Sure, you can go pick up different weapons but everything is openly available therefore it's definitely fair. 

Ignoring the counter-strike part, then yeah I'm only talking about MMORGPs.  They're both just as relevant though since WoW and CS are two of the biggest competitive games right now.  Even still, it's not about "fair" or "unfair", it's about what's out of your control and how little skill can amount to in video games vs. real life sports.

Offline Tuffty

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Re: E-sports : A rant
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2008, 01:30:55 PM »
Interesting arguments for and against the topic. Arun makes a good argument for the players side of things and I have no issue with people doing what they want to do provided it makes them happy and isn't destructive, as I said, I'm a dedicated gamer myself who can easily put in hours of gameplay if necessary. I realise I may have crossed the line by having a dig at the players earlier and for that apologise. I just don't think I, or to a much larger extent, the world, has accepted to the idea of spending all afternoon playing Halo as a sport as opposed to playing Football or Baseball etc.

Offline xerony

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Re: E-sports : A rant
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2008, 03:27:24 PM »
It's true everybody can be in an E-game. But reaching the top needs a special kind of dedication. Just as for normal sports.
Sport and gaming should be for the fun. If you're good at it it's a pro.
I personally think it's more fun to watch people competing in a sport. Than just watch some people play a game

For MMO games it's endless searching for good gear and training your character. And for games like counter strike you'll just need to learn those maps and make some strategies on how to win as a team.
Getting very good in games like these is about knowing where to go and what to do. You'll need how to use and abuse the games you're playing.
For top sport it's about knowing what you can do with your own body. And training it to make it better and stronger. But not everybody can reach the same level. Because of differences in how someone's stature is.

Too bad you have much athletes using doping. But gamers are just the same. They both use drugs to be able to play the game even better than normal.
Gamers have caffeine addiction (at least some of them). And lately there was a big scandal uncovered in the US baseball. With mayor players using doping. (steroids?)
But top sport is something different. Some people can't be defeated when they use doping. Just like you can't defeat a cheater in an online game.
So for the sake of the game you'll need to try and find those doping users and cheaters. But this is going on forever since they always find new ways.

They should have an Olympic game in how much times you can push a button in a minute. Should anyone be able to beat Takahashi Meijin :P
http://www.kirainet.com/english/takahashi-meijin-%e9%ab%98%e6%a9%8b%e5%90%8d%e4%ba%ba
(spam about takahashi meijin in english, also containing a movie of him pushing the button unbelievable fast)

Offline Masabi

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Re: E-sports : A rant
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2008, 10:03:36 PM »
Interesting arguments for and against the topic. Arun makes a good argument for the players side of things and I have no issue with people doing what they want to do provided it makes them happy and isn't destructive, as I said, I'm a dedicated gamer myself who can easily put in hours of gameplay if necessary. I realise I may have crossed the line by having a dig at the players earlier and for that apologise. I just don't think I, or to a much larger extent, the world, has accepted to the idea of spending all afternoon playing Halo as a sport as opposed to playing Football or Baseball etc.

I think you can't really call games a "sport".  There are tournaments and such but I don't think it will ever get as big as real sports.  Can you imagine a channel dedicated to watching others play games?  Games are about enjoying yourself, not watching other people enjoy themselves.  Then again, I'm not a big physical sport watcher either.
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Offline StreakInTheSky

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Re: E-sports : A rant
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2008, 07:13:05 AM »
They have channels dedicated to showing people play videogames like starcraft and warcraft in Korea.

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